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Author Topic:   Tower of Babble (a bunch of baseless babble)
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 198 (285561)
02-10-2006 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by bibbo
02-09-2006 8:44 PM


insignificant
I think there are reasons to doubt the significance of your Choctaw "Babel" story.
That particular story is copied word for word from an early 20th century compilation of Native American stories. This work places this story with a group that are obviously derived from European stories. The Native Americans were in contact with Europeans, of course, and would be expected to borrow stories from them:
In the stories of certain tribes the recent influence of the Europeans is very apparent. The French in Canada, the Spanish in the Southwest, and the negroes in the Southeast have contributed many tales to the tribes in their respective territories. Usually the Indians recognize these definitely as borrowings. European phraseology, background, and ideas abound. Not fewer than fifty well-known European tales are current among the American Indians. Several good examples of such tales, as well as of Bible narratives, form chapters VIII and IX of this collection.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by bibbo, posted 02-09-2006 8:44 PM bibbo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by bibbo, posted 02-10-2006 1:21 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 156 of 198 (285588)
02-10-2006 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by bibbo
02-10-2006 1:21 PM


Re: insignificant
quote:
Chiroptera, do you have a theory or motive as to why the Choctaw in particular would want to borrow a story such as this from the Europeans?
Are you skeptical about the well-established phenomenon of people sharing stories and borrowing them from the other cultures with whom they are in contact? It is well known that people borrow stories from other cultures and adapt them fit into their own society.
-
quote:
I mean, if truly it was borrowed, then I'd expect more than a mere similarity in stories
Interesting. Why would you expect that?

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by bibbo, posted 02-10-2006 1:21 PM bibbo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by bibbo, posted 02-10-2006 10:16 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 198 (285774)
02-10-2006 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by bibbo
02-10-2006 10:16 PM


Re: insignificant
quote:
(goofy example, but I hope you get the idea as to where I am going with this)...
Not really, since the question is why you doubt that the Choctaw "Babel" story is a result of contact with the European version.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by bibbo, posted 02-10-2006 10:16 PM bibbo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Omnivorous, posted 02-10-2006 11:37 PM Chiroptera has replied
 Message 162 by bibbo, posted 02-11-2006 8:23 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 198 (285843)
02-11-2006 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Omnivorous
02-10-2006 11:37 PM


It's a mystery.
You know, Omnivorous, I can understand why a Biblical literalist would want her creation myths to be true. What I have trouble understanding is why she would be so desperate for confirming evidence that she will just blindly accept any evidence or "reasoning" no matter how lame, and will automatically dismiss any refutation of that evidence no matter how reasonable and consistent with what we actually do see.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Omnivorous, posted 02-10-2006 11:37 PM Omnivorous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Omnivorous, posted 02-11-2006 8:43 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 198 (291533)
03-02-2006 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Joman
03-02-2006 2:54 PM


Re: The Tower of Babel
quote:
Taking this irrational position requires faith.
Since you cannot possibly mean to say that it is irrational to express skepticism of a very extraordinary tale unless some kind of evidence is provided, I will assume that you are agreeing that the Tower of Babel story is irrational and requires faith. In addition, the preceding part of your post must be an attempt at irony.
I agree with Ringo: welcome to EvC. I think you might be fun.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Joman, posted 03-02-2006 2:54 PM Joman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Joman, posted 03-02-2006 4:06 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 194 of 198 (293889)
03-10-2006 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by sinamatic
03-10-2006 4:35 AM


quote:
Anyway you look at it, it was just another dumb idea.
So why not let the project fail on its own merits without intervening? That would seem to be a great lesson; humanity's ideas are so dumb, that God doesn't even have to do anything for it to fail.
Instead, God gives in to his own insecurities and is compelled to act. Why tip his hand and admit that he dislikes and even fears humans?

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by sinamatic, posted 03-10-2006 4:35 AM sinamatic has not replied

  
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