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Author Topic:   Darwinist Creationists comments invited
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3696 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 31 of 43 (28847)
01-11-2003 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by John
01-09-2003 11:37 PM


It's not reasonable to interpret greater fitness as possibly applying to identical organisms, when in all other formulations of Natural Selection greater fitness refers to variants. A formulation of Natural Selection that does not require variation simply wouldn't use the word greater.

The greater then bit is a Social-Darwinist add-on from Malthus theory from which the theory of Natural Selection largely derived.

And again, you may have found one definition which possibly applies in a nonvariational way, but that still leaves all the other definitions which require variation for them to apply.

Besides this is all much irrellevant. What's more important here is which definition is better, not which definition is mainstream.

Seeing that the short definition applies more generally (includes describing functioning of traits in regards to their reproduction, endangered species etc.), so gives a more cohesive view then the definition that requires variation, it is better then differential reproductive success of variants.

regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by John, posted 01-09-2003 11:37 PM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by John, posted 01-11-2003 1:17 PM Syamsu has responded

    
John
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 43 (28861)
01-11-2003 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Syamsu
01-11-2003 4:09 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Syamsu:
It's not reasonable to interpret greater fitness as possibly applying to identical organisms, when in all other formulations of Natural Selection greater fitness refers to variants. A formulation of Natural Selection that does not require variation simply wouldn't use the word greater.

This is absurd. You are quibbling.

Are the individuals in clone populations effected by environmental factors? If yes, you have no case.

quote:
The greater then bit is a Social-Darwinist add-on from Malthus theory from which the theory of Natural Selection largely derived.

Add-on? Malthus was a big influence on Darwin's formulation of the theory.

And again, current evolutionary biology is not unaltered Darwinism. Why can you not understand this?

quote:
And again, you may have found one definition which possibly applies in a nonvariational way, but that still leaves all the other definitions which require variation for them to apply.

I find an example and you discount it. LOL.... Ask me why you are not taken as seriously as you'd like?

Besides which, it is the same damn formula whether you have one variant or many. You are quibbling. Think about the formula for acceration-- the change in velocity over time. The formula works whether time equals one or two or any other number. You don't need a new formula for one even though it is change over time. If the time specified is one, you have no change but the formual works. Similarly, NS works with one variant even though it is normally stated as refering to many variants.

quote:
Besides this is all much irrellevant. What's more important here is which definition is better, not which definition is mainstream.

It is the same damn formula.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Syamsu, posted 01-11-2003 4:09 AM Syamsu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Syamsu, posted 01-11-2003 11:56 PM John has responded

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3696 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 33 of 43 (28888)
01-11-2003 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by John
01-11-2003 1:17 PM


I would be glad if the formula didn't require variation, because then I could show some authority for my sort of definition. However the words "greater then", are obviously a reference to variation, otherwise the formulation would not make sense. I'm afraid that when I would argue some professional biologist, I would likely be called a liar for saying that definition referred doesn't require variation. Again, most biologists I talked to explicitly deny Natural Selection without variation is valid.

They are of course not the same definitions, one requires variation, the other doesn't. One involves a comparison on genotype/allelle the other doesn't. That you make no argumentation which definition is better, just shows to me you are trying to find an easy way out without actually making sound argument.

Would you really not object if you found the short definition that didn't require variation to apply was in a dictionary or glossary?

regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by John, posted 01-11-2003 1:17 PM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by John, posted 01-12-2003 12:33 AM Syamsu has responded

    
John
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 43 (28891)
01-12-2003 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Syamsu
01-11-2003 11:56 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Syamsu:
I would be glad if the formula didn't require variation

Do the individuals in clone populations still die?

quote:
However the words "greater then", are obviously a reference to variation, otherwise the formulation would not make sense.

BS. Syamsu, this is in your head.

quote:
I'm afraid that when I would argue some professional biologist, I would likely be called a liar for saying that definition referred doesn't require variation. Again, most biologists I talked to explicitly deny Natural Selection without variation is valid.

The way that you present your ideas is so convuluted that I am not surprised if you cannot get scientists to agree with you. Most of the time you don't make sense even when you are on the right track. No offense.

quote:
They are of course not the same definitions, one requires variation, the other doesn't.

NS is what, Syamsu? The influence of the environment upon an individual. Where do you see the need for variation?

quote:
One involves a comparison on genotype/allelle the other doesn't.

If there is variation there is going to be differential success, and there nearly always is variation.

quote:
That you make no argumentation which definition is better, just shows to me you are trying to find an easy way out without actually making sound argument.

Why would I make an argument for which is better when I think they are pretty much the same thing? NS works on individuals. Any study of a population will involve comparison. That comparison may reveal a clone population but will far more often reveal differential reproductive rates. That is, some animals will live and some will die. You don't like this but I don't see how you can avoid it.

quote:
Would you really not object if you found the short definition that didn't require variation to apply was in a dictionary or glossary?

Do I really believe what I claim to believe? No, I'm an idiot and a liar. Damned offensive question, Syamsu.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Syamsu, posted 01-11-2003 11:56 PM Syamsu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Syamsu, posted 01-12-2003 4:23 AM John has responded

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3696 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 35 of 43 (28895)
01-12-2003 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by John
01-12-2003 12:33 AM


You just don't seem to have thought this through.

I don't think it's true that variation manipulates reproduction most of the time. I think it's more likely that environmental variation such as weather and variation in numbers of predators and food are much bigger varying factors. So it would be more warranted to make a definition of Natural Selection with varying weather and food etc. then to make a definition of Natural Selection with variant organisms. Most often these varying organisms are 1 organism which has a mutation which makes some attribute not function, a deleterious allelle, and the rest of the population has the allelles as they had them before. Deleterious allelles are not very meaningful to look at IMO, but that is the main application of differential reproductive success of variants.

regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by John, posted 01-12-2003 12:33 AM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by John, posted 01-12-2003 10:53 AM Syamsu has responded

    
John
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 43 (28904)
01-12-2003 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Syamsu
01-12-2003 4:23 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Syamsu:
I don't think it's true that variation manipulates reproduction most of the time.

What? I didn't say variation manipulates reproduction. I said variation is present virtually all the time. And if it is present it going to be a factor.

quote:
I think it's more likely that environmental variation such as weather and variation in numbers of predators and food are much bigger varying factors.

Yes, perhaps so, but you cannot eliminate that the organisms themselves have variation.

I'm not even sure where you are going with this. No one disputes that the environment-- weather, predation, competition, whatever-- is a huge factor. But the environment does not mate and reproduce, the organism does. It is the genetic information passed along thereby that drives the evolution of a population.

quote:
So it would be more warranted to make a definition of Natural Selection with varying weather and food etc. then to make a definition of Natural Selection with variant organisms.

Just like the one we have. What do you think does the 'selecting' if not the environment?

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Syamsu, posted 01-12-2003 4:23 AM Syamsu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Syamsu, posted 01-12-2003 11:09 AM John has responded

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3696 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 37 of 43 (28905)
01-12-2003 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by John
01-12-2003 10:53 AM


This is not like the one we have.

I'm saying we do not have a standard formulation of differential reproductive success of same organisms in varying environments, but we do have a standard formulation of differential reproductive success of variants in the same environment.

regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by John, posted 01-12-2003 10:53 AM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by John, posted 01-12-2003 3:29 PM Syamsu has not yet responded
 Message 39 by Peter, posted 01-13-2003 2:16 AM Syamsu has responded

    
John
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 43 (28915)
01-12-2003 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Syamsu
01-12-2003 11:09 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Syamsu:
I'm saying we do not have a standard formulation of differential reproductive success of same organisms in varying environments, but we do have a standard formulation of differential reproductive success of variants in the same environment.

This is just silly. I don't know what else to say. Try to learn something and get back to me.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Syamsu, posted 01-12-2003 11:09 AM Syamsu has not yet responded

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 2030 days)
Posts: 2160
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 39 of 43 (28968)
01-13-2003 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Syamsu
01-12-2003 11:09 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Syamsu:
This is not like the one we have.

I'm saying we do not have a standard formulation of differential reproductive success of same organisms in varying environments, but we do have a standard formulation of differential reproductive success of variants in the same environment.

regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu


Yes we do ... re-read all the peppered moth stuff!!!!!

That example is all about one organism (the peppered moth)
in a changing environment (pre to post industrialised Britain).

Natural selection literally means 'selection by nature' ...
what aspect of nature do you think this means?

Your understanding (or lack of it) of NS and how it relates
to individuals and populational change is your downfall here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Syamsu, posted 01-12-2003 11:09 AM Syamsu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Syamsu, posted 01-13-2003 8:00 AM Peter has responded

    
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3696 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 40 of 43 (28981)
01-13-2003 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Peter
01-13-2003 2:16 AM


I was just talking about the definition of differential reproductive success of variants. Varying environments is not part of that definition.

regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Peter, posted 01-13-2003 2:16 AM Peter has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Peter, posted 01-15-2003 1:59 AM Syamsu has responded

    
Peter
Member (Idle past 2030 days)
Posts: 2160
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 41 of 43 (29167)
01-15-2003 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Syamsu
01-13-2003 8:00 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Syamsu:
I was just talking about the definition of differential reproductive success of variants. Varying environments is not part of that definition.

regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu


Yes it is, becuase the whole 'fitness' thing is a reference to
how well suited an individual is to its environment ... that's
what 'fitness' means. The reproductive success of an individual
can be different in different environments ... like the
peppered moths. The whole example is about how a change in the
environment caused a shift in trait frequencies in the moth
population due to differential reproductive success.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Syamsu, posted 01-13-2003 8:00 AM Syamsu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Syamsu, posted 01-15-2003 3:06 AM Peter has responded

    
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3696 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 42 of 43 (29171)
01-15-2003 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Peter
01-15-2003 1:59 AM


I'm just looking at the definition now, I can't find it. It would have been easy to clearly include it, then it would have been formulated as differential reproductive success in varying environments, or differential reproductive success of variants in varying environments.

regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Peter, posted 01-15-2003 1:59 AM Peter has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Peter, posted 01-15-2003 4:01 AM Syamsu has not yet responded

    
Peter
Member (Idle past 2030 days)
Posts: 2160
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 43 of 43 (29172)
01-15-2003 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Syamsu
01-15-2003 3:06 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Syamsu:
I'm just looking at the definition now, I can't find it. It would have been easy to clearly include it, then it would have been formulated as differential reproductive success in varying environments, or differential reproductive success of variants in varying environments.

Not sure of the exact wording of the definition you have, but
it will likely be along the lines that::

'NS is where some individuals have a greater chance of reproduction
than others due to greater fitness.'

The 'fitness' part refers to a relationship with the environment.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Syamsu, posted 01-15-2003 3:06 AM Syamsu has not yet responded

    
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