The Serpent of Genesis is not the Dragon of Revelations

On several occasions people have stated in various ways that the ancient serpent/dragon in Revelations that symbolizes Satan/Devil refers back to the serpent in Genesis 3:1 which means that the serpent in Genesis 3:1 is Satan.I disagree. IMO, the plain text reading does not support that the serpent of Genesis is the same as the serpent/dragon in the vision of Revelation.The serpent in Genesis is a beast of the field. In Hebrew “satan” is not used as a proper name until the word adversary is personified in the Book of Job. In this book the adversary works for God and does nothing without God’s permission. Within this book, the personified adversary is not described as a beast of the field. The dragon/serpent mentioned in John’s vision regardless of the adjectives used to describe it represents Satan/Devil as he fit into the beliefs of the time. IMO, the imagery was more than likely drawn from the leviathan in the Old Testament. Given that there was roughly 700 years between the Isaiah verse and John's vision, a lot changes over time.Just because a dragon/serpent is used to symbolize Satan in John’s vision, doesn’t make the serpent/snake in the Garden, Satan.Sometimes a snake is just a snake.

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i completely agree.i'm glad you posted this. revelation is clearly a purposeful incantation of ancient mythologies meant to convey a certain immediate point. whether this point is the fall of rome under nero or some other, it is certainly not consistent with the rest of the bible and most definitely not consistent with the rest of jesus' teachings. if nothing else, it is the completion of the attempt to meld jesus with the promised military savior that the jewish messiah was supposed to be. it is a weak and bizarre rebuttal.

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revelation is clearly a purposeful incantation of ancient mythologies meant to convey a certain immediate point.

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It's a shame that people forget that cultures continue to change and evolve over time and religions are no exception.Religions are not immune to influence from the secular world and other religions. Development of the Concept of Satan prior to 300 BCE in Israel

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

The book is called Revelation not Revelations (plural). It is the Revelation (singular) of Jesus Christ. As a climax to the entire Bible it is the culminating and closing book of all the books which are a revelation of Jesus Christ, from Genesis to Revelation.The link between Revelation 12 is evident - "And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him." (Rev.12:9)The "ancient serpent" refers to the serpent in the ancient times when man was first created. This is obviously a reference to the serpent who opposed God with a lie. Only those who reject the New Testament as the oracles of God would argue otherwise.It continues - "he who is called the Devil and Satan...". The ancient serpent is called the Devil and Satan. Satan means adversary. The Devil is not only the enemy of God but the adversary of God from within God's kingdom. The lying serpent was within the paradise Eden. From within God's realm, God's kingdom, Satan has an adversarial and competitive relationship with God.When we think of the word "adversary" ... "Satan" we should think of one within God's sphere of influence in competition and opposition to God.Revelation 12:9 says that this ancient adversary is "he who deceives the whole inhabited earth..."You, me, everyone reading this board, the monitors, the contributors are all included. All human beings on the whole inhabited planet have been deceived by Satan, the ancient serpent who deceives the whole inhabited earth.You may consider yourself pretty smart. But no human being ever born has been able to withstand the deceptive power of Satan. That is no person except Jesus Christ God's Son. Satan deceived the first woman created. And her husband followed her in plunging the entire human race into the adversary's deception.Speaking frankly, even some people's failure to recognize when Satan is concealing of his nature, is a part of the spiritual deception carried on by Satan. The whole inhabited earth has been deceived by God's enemy.Satan hates to be stripped naked and exposed. He loves to be concealed and hidden. On the other hand he loves those who have an excessive and unhealthy interest in him, like Satanists - those who worship Satan. He can deceive people one way or the other.The Apostle Paul writes "But I fear lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your thoughts would be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity toward Christ." (2 Cor. 10:3)Many people, when reading of the words and deeds of Jesus, have their hearts drawn to such a Person in love. It is a pure and simple reaction at such a wonderful figure. But the Apostle feared that these simple and pure thoughts toward Jesus would be corrupted by the craftiness of the spiritual enemy of God.The simplicity of reacting with pure love toward the Son of God can be corrupted by Satan injecting crafty thoughts into the minds of those who meet the words and deeds of Jesus Christ. A very intelligent person is as susceptible as an more obtuse minded person. Often those with more worldly education can have thier thoughts corrputed towards Christ easier.But Adam and Eve as the first humans were most likely extremely intelligent. But their pure thoughts towards God's heart and God's intentions were corrupted by the serpent. The identification of the serpent with Satan is unmistakable. The plain text of Genesis does not name the serpent as anything other than a serpent.But the revelation of the Bible is unfolding and progressive in nature. And the plain text of Revelation identifies the ancient serpent as the Devil and Satan, the one who deceives the whole inhabited earth.Who else deceived the whole inhabited earth? When Adam and Eve were led astray by the serpent the entire human family born from them were drawn into the result. The continued opposition of the world to God manifests that the whole world has been deceived, including man's religions. Not one religion on the earth has not been effected in some way by the deception of Satan, including Judaism and Christianity. And Atheism of course is based on the biggest deception of all, that God does not exist. I agree that there is nothing right there that would identify the serpent as Satan. However, there is strong clue.The serpent was made along with all the other creatures. But the made serpent was more subtle.Perhaps God's word does not start with the deeper spiritual significances theologically spelled out. But we can gather that God made a creature that was more crafty. And this crafty created being was in God's paradise.This should immediatly raise some theological and philosophical questions. Why would God make one so crafty that it would oppose God's word? And why is this one in the paradise of God? Didn't Genesis 1:31 say that all that God saw that He had made was "very good"? There are questions that most readers of the thoughtful sort would want to know. One must read on to get these answers.It is just that in Genesis chapter three God did not disclose everything at once concerning the nature of this crafty serpent. Progressively the mystery is unfolded in the whole Bible, including the New Testament. I'm curious as to the source of this opinion. I have been seeing it on the Internet for years.We'll see in the discussion how much Satan is working for God. The only way in which Satan is working for God is that God is able to make all things work together for good to all those who love Him and who are called according to His purpose. God is sovereign enough and powerful enough to cause all things to work towards the fulfillment of His eternal purpose. He can turn the tables on Satan. He can cause Satan's damage to work towards the divine purpose by His infinite skill and transcendent providence. Only in this way is Satan working for God.In the end Satan goes to his reward of eternal torment. That goes against every labor agreement I ever knew.Those who follow Satan in his opposition to God will join him in his hopeless destiny of eternal punishment. They will go down with their leader to co-partake of their leader's judgment. So we must be careful that we are not deceived by this one but come to the truth of God. It is certain that God's enemy can only do what God permits him to do. Satan is like a mad and vicious dog on a leash. But this analogy is not perfect.The point is that Satan cannot go beyond what God will permit him to do. Because God wants to demonstrate that His wisdom can prevail over any kind of opposition, he has allowed Satan to do the best job he can to mess everything up. This might be like a grandmaster chess player allowing his opponent to nearly defeat him at every move, taking more and more of the grandmaster's pieces, only to have the opponent helplessly checkmated in the end.But it is evident that a full treatise on who the serpent is does not fill the pages of Genesis. But that is only because the revelation of the Bible is progressively unfolded in the subsequent books. It continues all the way to the book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ as the climax of the whole Bible.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 08:23 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 08:25 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 08:27 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 08:32 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 08:40 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 08:42 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 08:46 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 08:51 AM

Well, let us look at revelation 12.9. I noticed you used the KJV.12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.Now.. a dragon is considered a serpent.. but not all serpents are considered dragons. From the text of Revelation, and from the text of Genesis, it is only an assumption that the DRAGON is the serpent in genesis.Because it talks of "satan" as the 'Great dragon". That does not appear to even be the seperent in the garden. While the serpent in the garden did provide temptation, the seperent did not deceive. Adam and Eve did not die that day.

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The "ancient serpent" refers to the serpent in the ancient times when man was first created. This is obviously a reference to the serpent who opposed God with a lie. Only those who reject the New Testament as the oracles of God would argue otherwise.

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Actually the ancient serpent refers to the great dragon and for the purposes of John's vision the Satan personna is portrayed by this huge serpentine creature. It isn't saying that Satan is a huge serpentine creature and it isn't referring back to Genesis.Just because I disagree with your interpretation, doesn't mean I reject the words of God within the NT. It only means that I disagree with your interpretation. I have no problem with John's vision.

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The Apostle Paul writes "But I fear lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your thoughts would be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity toward Christ." (2 Cor. 10:3)

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Now this verse is actually referring to the snake in the Garden, but Paul isn't referring to Satan in this comment. Read on: Paul is warning his audience against being deceived by other preachers.

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But the Apostle feared that these simple and pure thoughts toward Jesus would be corrupted by the craftiness of the spiritual enemy of God.

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IMO, that's reading more into the plain text than is actually there.

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The plain text of Genesis does not name the serpent as anything other than a serpent.

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The text disagrees with you.

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purpledawn writes:

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In Hebrew “satan” is not used as a proper name until the word adversary is personified in the Book of Job. In this book the adversary works for God and does nothing without God’s permission. Within this book, the personified adversary is not described as a beast of the field.

I'm curious as to the source of this opinion. I have been seeing it on the Internet for years.

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Judaism

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Satan is like a mad and vicious dog on a leash.

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Out of curiosity, what OT verses support this opinion?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I've heard all the arguments about whether the serpent in the garden did any deceiving. They're not pertinent here. It only matters whether the writer of the Revelation believes he deceived Eve. While he does not specifically talk about the garden, it is clear both that Paul believed the serpent in the garden was a deceiver (2 Cor 11:3) and that this was the view of the churches to whom the Book of Revelation was delivered. (Diognetus 12, [/i]Letter of Ignatius to the Trallians[/i] 10, among others)It seems much more likely that the writer of Revelation shared the view of Paul and the churches that made Revelation part of their canon than that he shared the view of 21st century skeptics. Doesn't it?

He is a dragon in Revelation because he has grown stronger and stronger in power and in treachery. From snake to dragon speaks of the encrease and enlargement of Satan's diobolical nature.He started with himself. Then he deceived perhaps one angel, then two or more. Then the treachery expanded to include one third of the angels in heaven. Then he deceived one woman and her husband. This was followed by hundreds, then thousands, then millions, then billions of people. The little snake has grown to be a dragon.The symbolism of Revelation 12 shows that this enemy of God is more than the opponent of one woman. He is the opponent of one great collective female - God's people of all ages and of all covenants. The universal bright woman before the dragon stands represents all of God's people on the earth from the creation of man until eternity. She is the totality of light.The stars about her head represent the saints of God before the age of the giving of the law. The moon underneath her feet represent the believers of the law of Moses. The law is subject to the woman because she stands in the grace of God. The law is therefore not exalted as the stars are as the crown upon her head. The age before the law consisted of those who by faith believed God's promises like Abel, Enoch, Enosh, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph. These are the stars exalted upon her head. But the Moses and those under the law are not exalted but rather subject to her. This subjection does not mean disrespect.The moon is also a reflection of the true light which is of the sun. The law was a reflection of Christ who is the life of God. The major part of her body is clothed with the sun which stands for the new testament church - the Jews and Gentiles brought into one Body through faith in Christ the sun of righteousness.So this woman represents not Eve alone and much less Mary or even just the Jewish nation. This woman before whom the dragon stands represents all of God's elect upon the earth in all ages. Before her Satan is always seeking to devour the stronger part - the manchild.But this matter of the manchild I will not touch in this response. These are writing about spiritual realities.I don't think that we are to go out and stomp on all snakes in the field to fulfull God's spiritual will. It is possible that the evil spirit of Satan possessed the body of a snake. I don't know.Satan entered into Judas. Satan is also completely one with the coming Antichrist. I don't know how the snake spoke to Eve. She seems not to have been surprised by the beast talking.I only have speculation to offer how the actual physical snake was invloved in this spiritual warfare. But I believe that it happened. And I believe that God caused it to happen or allowed it to happen in such a way that generations of human beings could relate to it to learn some crucial spiritual lessons.I myself am fond of snakes and use to keep them for pets. So Genesis does not inspire me to view snakes themselves as the great enemies of God and man. I use to have a pet king snake.I of course steer clear of poisoness snakes. But they are interesting when I go to the zoo. I think that debate has been gone over and my point made that the serpent did in fact lie.I don't think I'll revisit that debate at this time. I think it was won in the affirmative that Satan did lie.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 12:23 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 12:24 PM

The writing is not saying that Satan is a huge serpentine creature. That is for sure. The book of Revelation was made known to John "by signs"."The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show to His slaves the things that must quickly take place; and He made it known by signs ..." (Rev. 1:1)And Christ is also not a little four legged lamb but is represented by the "sign" of a lamb.The "ancient serpent" means that the Devil and Satan is the same being that was read about in Genesis. If you don't believe this then you probably have not seriously considered the parellel between Revelation 12:1-4 and Genesis 3:15-16Both passages concern a woman. Both concern a woman's child. In Genesis the child is called the "seed" of the woman. In Revelation the child is called the "manchild."As in Genesis God says that He will put enmity between the serpent and Eve so in Revelation you have a dragon standing before the woman poised to attack. In Genesis you have the seed of the woman who is also at enmity with the serpent. In Revelation you have the dragon eager to destroy the woman's manchild as soon as he is born.In Genesis the enmity between the woman and the serpent parellels perfectly the enmity between the symbolic woman and the dragon. In Genesis it is said that the serpent would bruise the heel of the woman's seed. In Revelation the manchild is a collective entity that "loved not their soul life even unto death" (12:11). This means that the collective group of people who compose the manchild were martyred to death in their opposition to Satan.Satan told God that a man would give anything for his soul even if it meant cursing God. But these ones who overcame the accuser loved not their soul life even to the death. They demonstrated that Satan is a liar. They proved that God can have a people on the earth who will obey His will rather than save their own soul life. The Lord Jesus said that to follow Him we must be willing to lose our self that we may find it.Satan has caused these faithful ones who comprise the woman's manchild to die the death of martyrs. But they have overcome Satan just the same and cause Satan to be cast down to the earth when they are caught up to the throne of God. This symbolizes the resurrection and rapture of certain overcoming believers at the end of this age before the great tribulation.The head of Satan is crushed by Christ and His army of overcomers at the battle of Armageddon in chapter 19 of Revelation. This parellels God's promise in Genesis that the seed of the woman would bruise the head of the serpent.The seed of the woman in Genesis is the child of the virgin woman Mary. This one defeated Satan. And the manchild in Revelation is an army of those believers from both testamental times who were faithful to God and especially to Christ even at the loss of their lives. Christ conquers Satan at the end of this age in conjunction with an army of overcomers who are rewarded to accompany Him.The scene of the woman and the serpent with enmity between them in ancient times is parelleled by a heavenly vision of the dragon Satan at enmity with all of God's people symbolized in a universally bright woman.There is no serious argument that the dragon is not the same being as in Genesis. And those who concoct such an interpretation only do so because they reject the New Testament as the word of God. They desire to slice and dice the Bible to separate that which is objectionable from it.Judaism as a religion since the resurrection of Jesus has been largely a religion specifically structured around the denial of Jesus being the Messiah. To do that of course the New Testament must be opposed. Under the guise of scholarship the opposers of Christ seek to cut off the New Testament as not Jewish or not pertaining to true Hebrew tradition. In thier minds this will furnish cultural grounds to completely separate the revelation of the New Testament from Judaism thus nullifying the teaching of Yeshua as the promised Savior and Messiah.As to the question of where in the Old Testament would I gather a concept of Satan being like a vicious dog on a leash?I might refer to the book of Job. There Satan is totally vicious against Job. But God has him under limitation. Job is thought to be the earliest written book in the Bible by some scholars. If so, then before Genesis was written Job was written discribing Satan like a vicious opposer of God and slanderer of man yet under God's soveriegn limitation.So he's something like a vicious dog on a leash IMO.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 01:33 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 01:36 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 01:41 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 01:43 PM

Blasphemy. Fiction. Speculation. Speak for yourself.

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Oh no. Ringo's back. I'm in trouble now ! I am speaking for myself. I was really deceived.I can speak for the others also.As long as you cringe at the phrase "the will of God" you are deceived. If when you hear the phrase "the will of God" and you shrink back within with fear, distrust, disdain, suspicion ... you are a deceived human being.If when you hear the phrase "the will of God" and you think of all that is beautiful, all that is right, all that is pure, holy, enjoyable, just, and glorious, then you may not be any longer deceived by Satan.As long as you count God as the enemy you are deceived. Which one of us is not some amount deceived still then?I tell you that Satan's job is to convince you that he is God and that God is Satan. That's it in a nutshell. Satan's desire is simply to twist the truth of the universe to be the exact opposite of what it really is.Only one man could absolutely stand against the deception of Satan - Jesus the Son of God.

Look at the passages in Revelation, and show me that "THe Great Serpent" and "Eve" are linked.The woman in the following passages can not be linked to Eve based on the verses itself. It would appear to be more of an allegory about Mary, Jesus' mother.

How do you know you are not deceived now? How do you know you weren't deceived by those two big anti-christs "Watchman Nee and Witness Lee"??

If when you hear the phrase "the will of God" and you envision the whole creation in beautiful harmony with eternal joy and eternal beauty, if you think of everything that you long for when you hear the phrase "the will of God" then you may be no longer deceived by Satan.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 01:59 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 02:15 PM