The Serpent of Genesis is not the Dragon of Revelations

The book is called Revelation not Revelations (plural). It is the Revelation (singular) of Jesus Christ. As a climax to the entire Bible it is the culminating and closing book of all the books which are a revelation of Jesus Christ, from Genesis to Revelation.The link between Revelation 12 is evident - "And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him." (Rev.12:9)The "ancient serpent" refers to the serpent in the ancient times when man was first created. This is obviously a reference to the serpent who opposed God with a lie. Only those who reject the New Testament as the oracles of God would argue otherwise.It continues - "he who is called the Devil and Satan...". The ancient serpent is called the Devil and Satan. Satan means adversary. The Devil is not only the enemy of God but the adversary of God from within God's kingdom. The lying serpent was within the paradise Eden. From within God's realm, God's kingdom, Satan has an adversarial and competitive relationship with God.When we think of the word "adversary" ... "Satan" we should think of one within God's sphere of influence in competition and opposition to God.Revelation 12:9 says that this ancient adversary is "he who deceives the whole inhabited earth..."You, me, everyone reading this board, the monitors, the contributors are all included. All human beings on the whole inhabited planet have been deceived by Satan, the ancient serpent who deceives the whole inhabited earth.You may consider yourself pretty smart. But no human being ever born has been able to withstand the deceptive power of Satan. That is no person except Jesus Christ God's Son. Satan deceived the first woman created. And her husband followed her in plunging the entire human race into the adversary's deception.Speaking frankly, even some people's failure to recognize when Satan is concealing of his nature, is a part of the spiritual deception carried on by Satan. The whole inhabited earth has been deceived by God's enemy.Satan hates to be stripped naked and exposed. He loves to be concealed and hidden. On the other hand he loves those who have an excessive and unhealthy interest in him, like Satanists - those who worship Satan. He can deceive people one way or the other.The Apostle Paul writes "But I fear lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your thoughts would be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity toward Christ." (2 Cor. 10:3)Many people, when reading of the words and deeds of Jesus, have their hearts drawn to such a Person in love. It is a pure and simple reaction at such a wonderful figure. But the Apostle feared that these simple and pure thoughts toward Jesus would be corrupted by the craftiness of the spiritual enemy of God.The simplicity of reacting with pure love toward the Son of God can be corrupted by Satan injecting crafty thoughts into the minds of those who meet the words and deeds of Jesus Christ. A very intelligent person is as susceptible as an more obtuse minded person. Often those with more worldly education can have thier thoughts corrputed towards Christ easier.But Adam and Eve as the first humans were most likely extremely intelligent. But their pure thoughts towards God's heart and God's intentions were corrupted by the serpent. The identification of the serpent with Satan is unmistakable. The plain text of Genesis does not name the serpent as anything other than a serpent.But the revelation of the Bible is unfolding and progressive in nature. And the plain text of Revelation identifies the ancient serpent as the Devil and Satan, the one who deceives the whole inhabited earth.Who else deceived the whole inhabited earth? When Adam and Eve were led astray by the serpent the entire human family born from them were drawn into the result. The continued opposition of the world to God manifests that the whole world has been deceived, including man's religions. Not one religion on the earth has not been effected in some way by the deception of Satan, including Judaism and Christianity. And Atheism of course is based on the biggest deception of all, that God does not exist. I agree that there is nothing right there that would identify the serpent as Satan. However, there is strong clue.The serpent was made along with all the other creatures. But the made serpent was more subtle.Perhaps God's word does not start with the deeper spiritual significances theologically spelled out. But we can gather that God made a creature that was more crafty. And this crafty created being was in God's paradise.This should immediatly raise some theological and philosophical questions. Why would God make one so crafty that it would oppose God's word? And why is this one in the paradise of God? Didn't Genesis 1:31 say that all that God saw that He had made was "very good"? There are questions that most readers of the thoughtful sort would want to know. One must read on to get these answers.It is just that in Genesis chapter three God did not disclose everything at once concerning the nature of this crafty serpent. Progressively the mystery is unfolded in the whole Bible, including the New Testament. I'm curious as to the source of this opinion. I have been seeing it on the Internet for years.We'll see in the discussion how much Satan is working for God. The only way in which Satan is working for God is that God is able to make all things work together for good to all those who love Him and who are called according to His purpose. God is sovereign enough and powerful enough to cause all things to work towards the fulfillment of His eternal purpose. He can turn the tables on Satan. He can cause Satan's damage to work towards the divine purpose by His infinite skill and transcendent providence. Only in this way is Satan working for God.In the end Satan goes to his reward of eternal torment. That goes against every labor agreement I ever knew.Those who follow Satan in his opposition to God will join him in his hopeless destiny of eternal punishment. They will go down with their leader to co-partake of their leader's judgment. So we must be careful that we are not deceived by this one but come to the truth of God. It is certain that God's enemy can only do what God permits him to do. Satan is like a mad and vicious dog on a leash. But this analogy is not perfect.The point is that Satan cannot go beyond what God will permit him to do. Because God wants to demonstrate that His wisdom can prevail over any kind of opposition, he has allowed Satan to do the best job he can to mess everything up. This might be like a grandmaster chess player allowing his opponent to nearly defeat him at every move, taking more and more of the grandmaster's pieces, only to have the opponent helplessly checkmated in the end.But it is evident that a full treatise on who the serpent is does not fill the pages of Genesis. But that is only because the revelation of the Bible is progressively unfolded in the subsequent books. It continues all the way to the book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ as the climax of the whole Bible.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 08:23 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 08:25 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 08:27 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 08:32 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 08:40 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 08:42 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 08:46 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 08:51 AM

He is a dragon in Revelation because he has grown stronger and stronger in power and in treachery. From snake to dragon speaks of the encrease and enlargement of Satan's diobolical nature.He started with himself. Then he deceived perhaps one angel, then two or more. Then the treachery expanded to include one third of the angels in heaven. Then he deceived one woman and her husband. This was followed by hundreds, then thousands, then millions, then billions of people. The little snake has grown to be a dragon.The symbolism of Revelation 12 shows that this enemy of God is more than the opponent of one woman. He is the opponent of one great collective female - God's people of all ages and of all covenants. The universal bright woman before the dragon stands represents all of God's people on the earth from the creation of man until eternity. She is the totality of light.The stars about her head represent the saints of God before the age of the giving of the law. The moon underneath her feet represent the believers of the law of Moses. The law is subject to the woman because she stands in the grace of God. The law is therefore not exalted as the stars are as the crown upon her head. The age before the law consisted of those who by faith believed God's promises like Abel, Enoch, Enosh, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph. These are the stars exalted upon her head. But the Moses and those under the law are not exalted but rather subject to her. This subjection does not mean disrespect.The moon is also a reflection of the true light which is of the sun. The law was a reflection of Christ who is the life of God. The major part of her body is clothed with the sun which stands for the new testament church - the Jews and Gentiles brought into one Body through faith in Christ the sun of righteousness.So this woman represents not Eve alone and much less Mary or even just the Jewish nation. This woman before whom the dragon stands represents all of God's elect upon the earth in all ages. Before her Satan is always seeking to devour the stronger part - the manchild.But this matter of the manchild I will not touch in this response. These are writing about spiritual realities.I don't think that we are to go out and stomp on all snakes in the field to fulfull God's spiritual will. It is possible that the evil spirit of Satan possessed the body of a snake. I don't know.Satan entered into Judas. Satan is also completely one with the coming Antichrist. I don't know how the snake spoke to Eve. She seems not to have been surprised by the beast talking.I only have speculation to offer how the actual physical snake was invloved in this spiritual warfare. But I believe that it happened. And I believe that God caused it to happen or allowed it to happen in such a way that generations of human beings could relate to it to learn some crucial spiritual lessons.I myself am fond of snakes and use to keep them for pets. So Genesis does not inspire me to view snakes themselves as the great enemies of God and man. I use to have a pet king snake.I of course steer clear of poisoness snakes. But they are interesting when I go to the zoo. I think that debate has been gone over and my point made that the serpent did in fact lie.I don't think I'll revisit that debate at this time. I think it was won in the affirmative that Satan did lie.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 12:23 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 12:24 PM

The writing is not saying that Satan is a huge serpentine creature. That is for sure. The book of Revelation was made known to John "by signs"."The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show to His slaves the things that must quickly take place; and He made it known by signs ..." (Rev. 1:1)And Christ is also not a little four legged lamb but is represented by the "sign" of a lamb.The "ancient serpent" means that the Devil and Satan is the same being that was read about in Genesis. If you don't believe this then you probably have not seriously considered the parellel between Revelation 12:1-4 and Genesis 3:15-16Both passages concern a woman. Both concern a woman's child. In Genesis the child is called the "seed" of the woman. In Revelation the child is called the "manchild."As in Genesis God says that He will put enmity between the serpent and Eve so in Revelation you have a dragon standing before the woman poised to attack. In Genesis you have the seed of the woman who is also at enmity with the serpent. In Revelation you have the dragon eager to destroy the woman's manchild as soon as he is born.In Genesis the enmity between the woman and the serpent parellels perfectly the enmity between the symbolic woman and the dragon. In Genesis it is said that the serpent would bruise the heel of the woman's seed. In Revelation the manchild is a collective entity that "loved not their soul life even unto death" (12:11). This means that the collective group of people who compose the manchild were martyred to death in their opposition to Satan.Satan told God that a man would give anything for his soul even if it meant cursing God. But these ones who overcame the accuser loved not their soul life even to the death. They demonstrated that Satan is a liar. They proved that God can have a people on the earth who will obey His will rather than save their own soul life. The Lord Jesus said that to follow Him we must be willing to lose our self that we may find it.Satan has caused these faithful ones who comprise the woman's manchild to die the death of martyrs. But they have overcome Satan just the same and cause Satan to be cast down to the earth when they are caught up to the throne of God. This symbolizes the resurrection and rapture of certain overcoming believers at the end of this age before the great tribulation.The head of Satan is crushed by Christ and His army of overcomers at the battle of Armageddon in chapter 19 of Revelation. This parellels God's promise in Genesis that the seed of the woman would bruise the head of the serpent.The seed of the woman in Genesis is the child of the virgin woman Mary. This one defeated Satan. And the manchild in Revelation is an army of those believers from both testamental times who were faithful to God and especially to Christ even at the loss of their lives. Christ conquers Satan at the end of this age in conjunction with an army of overcomers who are rewarded to accompany Him.The scene of the woman and the serpent with enmity between them in ancient times is parelleled by a heavenly vision of the dragon Satan at enmity with all of God's people symbolized in a universally bright woman.There is no serious argument that the dragon is not the same being as in Genesis. And those who concoct such an interpretation only do so because they reject the New Testament as the word of God. They desire to slice and dice the Bible to separate that which is objectionable from it.Judaism as a religion since the resurrection of Jesus has been largely a religion specifically structured around the denial of Jesus being the Messiah. To do that of course the New Testament must be opposed. Under the guise of scholarship the opposers of Christ seek to cut off the New Testament as not Jewish or not pertaining to true Hebrew tradition. In thier minds this will furnish cultural grounds to completely separate the revelation of the New Testament from Judaism thus nullifying the teaching of Yeshua as the promised Savior and Messiah.As to the question of where in the Old Testament would I gather a concept of Satan being like a vicious dog on a leash?I might refer to the book of Job. There Satan is totally vicious against Job. But God has him under limitation. Job is thought to be the earliest written book in the Bible by some scholars. If so, then before Genesis was written Job was written discribing Satan like a vicious opposer of God and slanderer of man yet under God's soveriegn limitation.So he's something like a vicious dog on a leash IMO.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 01:33 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 01:36 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 01:41 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 01:43 PM

Oh no. Ringo's back. I'm in trouble now ! I am speaking for myself. I was really deceived.I can speak for the others also.As long as you cringe at the phrase "the will of God" you are deceived. If when you hear the phrase "the will of God" and you shrink back within with fear, distrust, disdain, suspicion ... you are a deceived human being.If when you hear the phrase "the will of God" and you think of all that is beautiful, all that is right, all that is pure, holy, enjoyable, just, and glorious, then you may not be any longer deceived by Satan.As long as you count God as the enemy you are deceived. Which one of us is not some amount deceived still then?I tell you that Satan's job is to convince you that he is God and that God is Satan. That's it in a nutshell. Satan's desire is simply to twist the truth of the universe to be the exact opposite of what it really is.Only one man could absolutely stand against the deception of Satan - Jesus the Son of God.

If when you hear the phrase "the will of God" and you envision the whole creation in beautiful harmony with eternal joy and eternal beauty, if you think of everything that you long for when you hear the phrase "the will of God" then you may be no longer deceived by Satan.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 01:59 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 02:15 PM

I know that to some degree I am still a deceived man.But I have hope that the truth is growing in me because Jesus is growing in me.

But you just accused me of blasphemy. To blaspheme is to insult God.Then you don't think that my alleged insulting of God through blashemy as you charge is being at enmity with God?

Some people think the woman symbolizes Mary. My reasons for not agreeing:There is no reason why Mary should be so exalted in the Bible. She was chosen "among" woman. She was not chosen "above" women.Also the manchild that is born to the woman in Revelation is not an individual but a collective. This is proved by the words "thier" and "they" and "them" in verses 11 and 12. I would include "our brothers" also in verse 11 to prove that the manchild is a collective rather than an individual.Also the catching up of the woman's child to the throne of God in Revelation does not suggest the history of Christ's ascension. Christ was not caught up to the throne the moment He was born. He lived thirty three years and a half first and then ascended to the right hand of God.Next, Mary did not flee to the wilderness after the ascension of Jesus. She did flee to Egypt with her husband. But that was after the birth of Jesus and not after His ascension.Next, the events following the catching up of the manchild in Revelation 12 are for a specific three and one half years. This is the last three and one half years of this present age before Christ takes total posession of the globe establishing His millennial kingdom. There is nothing in the New Testament about Mary being persecuted for three and one half years after Christ was either born or ascended into heaven.I reject the symbolism of the bright woman as that of Mary. But the phrase "the woman's seed" based on Genesis 3:15 I would take as a reference to the virgin birth of Christ the Savior of the world.Christ, having no physical father, was indeed a woman's seed. Mary the virgin gave birth to the Savior of the world as Matthew and Luke teach us.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 02:33 PM

Ringo,Well you say that God has no enemies.I would like to know if you think that for a brief temporary time God could have enemies?In the vast endless stretches of eternity, do you think it is possible that for a temporary time there could be a non-permanent opposition party to God?This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 02:42 PM

The Apostle John tells us that Cain was of the evil one."... we should love one another, not as Cain was of the evil one and slew his brother..." (First John 3:12)Who is "the evil one" who instigated Cain to murder his brother (Genesis 4:8)?My vote is that the Apostle John was refering to Satan. And I don't think he meant that Cain was a little baby snake.It is too bad that some readers cannot spiritually ascertain certain themes in the Bible.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-05-2006 07:43 AM

Sorry Ramoss. That post was accidentally addressed to you. But just the same ... I think the real "writer" of Genesis is the Spirit of God. That is the same writer of the epistle of First John. One God speaking through two different prophetic authors accross the span of many centries.Secondly, the writer of Genesis did too think "Evil" inspired Cain to kill his brother. The writer called it "sin""And Jehovah said to Cain, Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not [your countenance] be lifted up? And if you do not do well, SIN is crouching at the door; and his desire is for you, but you must rule over him" (Genesis 4:6,7) (my emphasis)God warns Cain that sin is crouching. Only a living thing would be discribed as crouching, poised to attack, stealthily positioned to take advantage of the situation. Sin is discribed as a personified evil beast crouching and ready to dominate Cain's heart.Cain failed to excercise self control over his envy. And the evil crouching power of sin flooded his heart. He rose up and did Satan's will and murdered the true seeker of God, Abel.So the Apostle John says that Cain was of the evil one. John also rightly tells us that the Devil has sinned from the beginning:"He who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning." (First John 3:8)The devil has sinned continually from ancient times and begets sinners that they might practice sin with him.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-05-2006 08:43 AM

Isaiah the prophet spoke rightly that some are under a spirit of spiritual sleep and simply cannot percieve the meanings of prophetic scriptures. Some who are looking to traditional Judaism to obscure the deeper truths of the Bible seem to me to be under the slumbering spiritual sleep that God said He would pour out on Israel.You can't see that from the beginning God has been in a battle over the earth and man with His enemy Satan. And this profound truth He has sought to communicate to us in many ways."For Jehovah has poured out upon you a spirit of deep sleep And has shut your eyes, the prophets; And your heads, the seers, He has covered.

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And all the vision will be to you like the words of a book that has been sealed, which when they give to him who is literate, saying, Please read this, he will say, I am not able to, for it is sealed.

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Then the book will be given to him who is illiterate, saying, Please read this, and he will say, I am illiterate.

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And the Lord said, Because this people draws near with their mouth, And with their lips they honor Me, Yet they remove their heart far from Me, and their fear for Me is a commandment of men merely learned;

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Therefore, indeed, I will once again do something wondrous with this people, something wondrously marvelous; And the wisdom of their wise men will perish, And the understanding of those who understand will be hidden." (Isaiah)Some of you skeptics are just under a spirit of deep sleep so that you cannot discern rightly spiritual truths from the Bible. I would encourage you to pray and ask God for His mercy. And that not that you would agree with me but that you wouldn't lean on your on understanding but seek revelation from God.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-05-2006 04:45 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-05-2006 04:47 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-05-2006 04:50 PM

I agree with this. This is a most biblical principal, both of the Old and New Testament.Actually, I pray in agreement just as much. That is when I know that I am presenting the truth of the Bible.I don't wait until failure to start praying.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-05-2006 08:13 PM

Ringo writes: You shouldn't be worried about this. The verse says the wisdom of the wise. I wasn't thinking of you when I quoted that.

But you don't want to hear the Apostle John clarify matters to you on Genesis. If I point out that John called the Devil and the dragon in Revelation "the ancient serpent" you could not care less.If I point out that John said Cain was of "the evil one" you're still not impressed.It doesn't matter that John was a Jew. It doesn't matter that he was 2,000 years closer to the writing of Genesis than you or I. It deosn't matter that he probably had a relative who was in the priestly order or that the New Testament says that he was on familiar terms with the high priest.Probably you write him off up front because he is a Christian. Anyway I don't think that the comments of the Apostle John can be lightly dismissed when he expounds on Genesis or draws upon the symbolism in his Revelation alluding back to Genesis. I think that I did. I did not write as much on it as I could have my any means.Generally the battle between God and the Devil is over the earth. And it is particularly over who has the dominion and deputy authority over the earth.This opposition to Adam and Eve was not simply a little personal matter against an arbitrary couple. It was an attack, a preemptive attack of God's enemy against the human race. It was a strategic strike aimed at arresting the course of the creation - who would be the dominion? Would it be God's man or someone else.I think in the desire to "demythasize" the Scripture some readers here want to simply make this a little fable about a snake and a couple - and not a terribly significant couple at that. If I try to explain more someone will object that I am reading too much into the cute little story about a couple.They only see as far as some details of chapter three of Genesis. The flow of history afterwards means nothing to them. They really don't see any significant scheme of purpose to the Bible. Their Bible is just a scrap book of unrelated and disjointed tales.They read the Bible like they would read Grimm's Fairy Tales. They see no common thread, no theme, and certainly no divine inspiration spanning over the ages of the writing from Genesis to Revelation. This may be a comment of what did it mean to the pre-Christian era Jews. That is a legitimate question. I am sure that they had some thoughts about it which they took in a spiritual way from their teachers.Those explanations may not be as developed as what I referenced in Revelation. But what Revelation shows about it should be regarded as the latest and most clear light on how the Spirit of God applied meaning to the serpent in Genesis.But this you are likely to not accept as you would not think any Spirit of God is involved with the delivery of the Bible to mankind as a communication from God. In other words - Just stick to Genesis and don't bring Revelation into the matter at all. But the topic is about a comparison between a matter that is found (supposedly) in both books.It should be noticed that the serpent is not mentioned any more in Genesis. In Exodus and in Numbers we do have some extremly interesting passages which further touch the serpent/s. For instance the brass serpent lifted on the pole by Moses. And those who looked upon the brass serpent were healed of snake poison.Jesus directly refered to this record in John 3. I don't think you would appreciate Christ's expounding of the serpent in Numbers as related to Himself. You are not interested in Christ as the the centrality of the Bible apparently.Well, within the confines of Genesis alone the serpent is no longer mentioned after Genesis three. This alone should mean something about its significance. This alone should alert us that perhaps that detail is lost because the serpent points to something beyond itself.There is one exception. When Jacob blesses his sons he refers prophetically to the tribe of Dan as a serpent by the way. The serpent, says Jacob, would bite the horse rider and cause him to fall off backwards from the horse.Now the tribe of Dan brought in a horrendous idolatry. And they caused Israel to stumble as far as God's will was concerned. So this link between the symbol of a serpent is established in connection to idolary and apostasy of Israel.This strengthens to me the understanding of the serpent as related to Satan in the scheme of the entire Bible. The rider of God's people was bitten and fell backwards. They went into apostasy. The tribe of Dan was dropped from the list of twelve tribes temporarily in the New Testament. But they are mentioned again in connection with the millennial kingdom. You might move the goal post again if I do that.