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Author Topic:   The Serpent of Genesis is not the Dragon of Revelations
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 16 of 302 (292126)
03-04-2006 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by ramoss
03-04-2006 1:57 PM


Re: The ancient serpent -the Devil
How do you know you are not deceived now?
I know that to some degree I am still a deceived man.
But I have hope that the truth is growing in me because Jesus is growing in me.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 17 of 302 (292129)
03-04-2006 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jaywill
03-04-2006 1:54 PM


Re: The ancient serpent -the Devil
jaywill writes:
As long as you cringe at the phrase "the will of God" you are deceived.
I guess I'm okay then. I never cringe at anything.
As long as you count God as the enemy you are deceived.
That's where I have a problem with all this Satan-worship. I don't believe God has any enemies. How could an all-powerful God have enemies? (Hence the "blasphemy" comment above - in case you didn't catch it. )
And if God has no enemies, how can I have enemies?
I believe that those who see Satan behind every bush and in every snake are the ones who are deceived.
I tell you that Satan's job is to convince you that he is God and that God is Satan.
I tell you that Satan's job is to do the vaccuuming - until God tells him to do something else.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jaywill, posted 03-04-2006 1:54 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 18 of 302 (292131)
03-04-2006 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ringo
03-04-2006 2:06 PM


Re: The ancient serpent -the Devil
And if God has no enemies, how can I have enemies?
But you just accused me of blasphemy. To blaspheme is to insult God.
Then you don't think that my alleged insulting of God through blashemy as you charge is being at enmity with God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ringo, posted 03-04-2006 2:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 03-04-2006 2:34 PM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 19 of 302 (292134)
03-04-2006 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ramoss
03-04-2006 1:56 PM


Re: The ancient serpent -the Devil
The woman in the following passages can not be linked to Eve based on the verses itself. It would appear to be more of an allegory about Mary, Jesus' mother.
Some people think the woman symbolizes Mary. My reasons for not agreeing:
There is no reason why Mary should be so exalted in the Bible. She was chosen "among" woman. She was not chosen "above" women.
Also the manchild that is born to the woman in Revelation is not an individual but a collective. This is proved by the words "thier" and "they" and "them" in verses 11 and 12. I would include "our brothers" also in verse 11 to prove that the manchild is a collective rather than an individual.
Also the catching up of the woman's child to the throne of God in Revelation does not suggest the history of Christ's ascension. Christ was not caught up to the throne the moment He was born. He lived thirty three years and a half first and then ascended to the right hand of God.
Next, Mary did not flee to the wilderness after the ascension of Jesus. She did flee to Egypt with her husband. But that was after the birth of Jesus and not after His ascension.
Next, the events following the catching up of the manchild in Revelation 12 are for a specific three and one half years. This is the last three and one half years of this present age before Christ takes total posession of the globe establishing His millennial kingdom. There is nothing in the New Testament about Mary being persecuted for three and one half years after Christ was either born or ascended into heaven.
I reject the symbolism of the bright woman as that of Mary. But the phrase "the woman's seed" based on Genesis 3:15 I would take as a reference to the virgin birth of Christ the Savior of the world.
Christ, having no physical father, was indeed a woman's seed. Mary the virgin gave birth to the Savior of the world as Matthew and Luke teach us.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 02:33 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 20 of 302 (292135)
03-04-2006 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jaywill
03-04-2006 2:10 PM


Re: The ancient serpent -the Devil
Then you don't think that my alleged insulting of God through blashemy as you charge is being at enmity with God?
Being "at enmity" doesn't make you an enemy. You'd have no credibility as an enemy of God.
Neither does Satan (or any snake).

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jaywill, posted 03-04-2006 2:10 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by jaywill, posted 03-04-2006 2:41 PM ringo has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 21 of 302 (292137)
03-04-2006 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by ringo
03-04-2006 2:34 PM


Re: The ancient serpent -the Devil
Ringo,
Well you say that God has no enemies.
I would like to know if you think that for a brief temporary time God could have enemies?
In the vast endless stretches of eternity, do you think it is possible that for a temporary time there could be a non-permanent opposition party to God?
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 02:42 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 03-04-2006 2:34 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 22 of 302 (292138)
03-04-2006 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by jaywill
03-04-2006 2:41 PM


No Enemy No Cry
Jaywill writes:
In the vast endless stretches of eternity, do you think it is possible that for a temporary time there could be a non-permanent opposition party to God?
Certainly not. God transcends time, does He not?
(Can this be related to the topic?)

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 23 of 302 (292139)
03-04-2006 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ramoss
03-04-2006 1:56 PM


Re: The ancient serpent -the Devil
Look at the passages in Revelation, and show me that "THe Great Serpent" and "Eve" are linked.
I'd rather not, since the whole thing seems completely subjective to me. I was just pointing out that using "the serpent didn't deceive in the garden" doesn't apply, because it's apparent that the writer of the Revelation would think he did deceive in the garden, and that's who's at stake here.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 24 of 302 (292147)
03-04-2006 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jaywill
03-04-2006 2:32 PM


Re: The ancient serpent -the Devil
The 'woman's seed', in the hebrew, just means her children. You are reading too much into Genesis.
Except for that one colloqualism, none of the other descriptions of 'The woman' in revelation can corrospond to the story of Adam and Eve. There are numerous parrells to the Christian Jesus and the woman that is most associated with that imagery is Mary. That makes a much better parrell than Eve.
On the other hand, I am quite certain that the person who redacted the two creations stories in Genesis did NOT think of the snake in the garden as Satan. Those stories predated the disporia, and it is through the disoporia into Persia that the dualistic concept of God and Shaitan (the accuser) entered Judaism.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 25 of 302 (292148)
03-04-2006 4:09 PM


A quick look through the books
What was the fate of the serpent in the garden?
Gen 3:14 writes:
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
So all we need to do, is see if Satan appears doing anything other than crawling on his belly.
Job 1:7 writes:
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Of course, that could be a bad translation, it could be 'traverse'.
Zec 3:1 writes:
And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Once again, could be a translation issue. Moving on...
1Pe 5:8 writes:
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Interesting comparison. Why would the devil be compared with a lion and not, for example, a snake?
There are references to Satan/the Devil sitting on a throne. I'm not sure crawling serpents can really be defined as 'sitting'.
Another interesting verse:
2Cr 11:14 writes:
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
I come away from the Bible not seeing Satan and the serpent as being the same. I see satan as being an Angel given a job by God (yes, pun intended), him getting overzealous in his duty and becoming the eternal enemy of mankind.
This message has been edited by Modulous, Sat, 04-March-2006 09:12 PM

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 302 (292158)
03-04-2006 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
03-03-2006 9:14 PM


Purpledawn Is Right
1. I've always contended that the deceiving serpent of Genesis was a beast of the field and not Satan the red heavenly dragon of Revelation 12. That's because I'm a strict Biblical fundie, inasmuch as I take scripture to be literal unless the context clearly indicates otherwise.
2. In fact, in the Genesis account, the writer identifies the pre-cursed serpents as being more subtle/intelligent than all the other serpents of the field, indicating that they were beasts of the field.
3. The pre-cursed serpents of Eden were not snakes. They were not belly crawling beasts as clearly implied in the account. They became belly crawling serpents after the curse. Thus my contention that they were the dinosaurs which were long legged serpents whose offspring became the belly crawling serpents via the curse.
4. My argument has been that not only were they cursed to become belly crawlers, but that their whole physiology, including their intelligence, their size and even their blood physiology was adjusted to being belly crawling creatures.
5. It is my contention that Satan inspired one of them to do the deceptive job on Eve.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 27 of 302 (292241)
03-04-2006 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jaywill
03-04-2006 1:32 PM


No Parallel
quote:
The "ancient serpent" means that the Devil and Satan is the same being that was read about in Genesis. If you don't believe this then you probably have not seriously considered the parellel between Revelation 12:1-4 and Genesis 3:15-16
No it doesn't. The symbolic vision doesn't point to that conclusion. There is no parallel. Pregnant woman getting ready to birth. There are quite a few of those in the OT and through the ages. A very general visual aid.
quote:
In Genesis the enmity between the woman and the serpent parellels perfectly the enmity between the symbolic woman and the dragon.
No enimity (hatred) is implied in the text of John's vision. You're putting more into the text than what is there.
quote:
The head of Satan is crushed by Christ and His army of overcomers at the battle of Armageddon in chapter 19 of Revelation. This parellels God's promise in Genesis that the seed of the woman would bruise the head of the serpent.
Again not in the text.
quote:
There is no serious argument that the dragon is not the same being as in Genesis. And those who concoct such an interpretation only do so because they reject the New Testament as the word of God. They desire to slice and dice the Bible to separate that which is objectionable from it.
As I've said before, just because someone disagrees with your interpretation doesn't mean they reject the NT as the word of God or that they are slicing out what they don't like.
The same type of thing can be said about those who pad the text.
Those who add to the word of God desire to hide that which is objectionable to them.
All I've sliced out is what you have added.
Several have shown you why the dragon in John's vision is not the talking snake in Genesis. But you haven't shown anything concrete without adding to the text, that shows the talking snake is Satan.
Abraham deceived the king about his wife Sarah. Does that make him Satan? No
It serves no purpose in the Genesis story to turn the talking snake into Satan or to John's vision to relate it back to the talking snake.
Again disagreeing with you doesn't not equate with rejecting the Bible or the NT. It only means we disagree with you, not God.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 28 of 302 (292272)
03-05-2006 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
03-04-2006 4:45 PM


Re: Purpledawn Is Right
1. I've always contended that the deceiving serpent of Genesis was a beast of the field and not Satan the red heavenly dragon of Revelation 12. That's because I'm a strict Biblical fundie, inasmuch as I take scripture to be literal unless the context clearly indicates otherwise.
i think the writer was making parallials between satan and tiamat, being that both at that time represent chaos
2. In fact, in the Genesis account, the writer identifies the pre-cursed serpents as being more subtle/intelligent than all the other serpents of the field, indicating that they were beasts of the field.
its only speaks of one snake, and this snake also parallials tiamat or laviathen in someway, considering it sowed chaos into the system
3. The pre-cursed serpents of Eden were not snakes. They were not belly crawling beasts as clearly implied in the account. They became belly crawling serpents after the curse. Thus my contention that they were the dinosaurs which were long legged serpents whose offspring became the belly crawling serpents via the curse.
its called a snake, the snake was cursed by god, there are very few dinosaurs that look remotely like snakes, they are called terible lizards not terrible snakes.
buz do you understand they couldn't be dinosaurs? dinosaurs were not very smart, the smartest one was as intelligent as a turkey, and you do know what turkeys do when it rains right?
4. My argument has been that not only were they cursed to become belly crawlers, but that their whole physiology, including their intelligence, their size and even their blood physiology was adjusted to being belly crawling creatures.
sadly its not a ver convencing one, there is nothing biblical to back any of this up. god has never changed the whole structure of anything after it was created, the only maybe was the age limits on people but nothing on over-all anything
5. It is my contention that Satan inspired one of them to do the deceptive job on Eve.
how would a servent of god do such a thing? there isn't even a satan till job and he is only able to do things at the word of god

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 29 of 302 (292279)
03-05-2006 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
03-03-2006 9:14 PM


Snake or Satan?
Hi, PD! in my translations, the serpent is less indictative as one of the animals.
NIV writes:
Gen 3:1--Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made.
Lets look at a few other translations:
American Standard writes:
Gen 3:1-- Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden?
Im gonna check a few more later....
This in and of itself does not indicate that the serpant was one of the wild animals that the LORD had made. It only indicates that the serpant was smarter than the animals---in a devious sort of way. The serpent talks---something no other animal does...(unless you include humans as animals)
NIV writes:
Gen 3:14-15-- So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."
So what is it about the bad vibes betwixt the offspring of a mere snake and the offspring of a woman?
And why did God boot the humans out of the Garden and not the snake?
This message has been edited by Phat, 03-05-2006 12:58 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by ReverendDG, posted 03-05-2006 3:06 AM Phat has replied
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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 30 of 302 (292280)
03-05-2006 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
03-05-2006 2:57 AM


Re: Snake or Satan?
This in and of itself does not indicate that the serpant was one of the wild animals that the LORD had made. It only indicates that the serpant was smarter than the animals---in a devious sort of way. The serpent talks---something no other animal does...(unless you include humans as animals)
lol i hope i'm wrong in thinking you don't think god made the serpent, that would worry me hmm i just had a thought, though i figure its not new, maybe god had the snake test adam and eve?
So what is it about the bad vibes betwixt the offspring of a mere snake and the offspring of a woman?
maybe people back then had a huge fear of snakes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 03-05-2006 2:57 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
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