homosexuality

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Originally posted by John:

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Originally posted by gene90:
I find it odd that the opposition is bring up Leviticus and the Law of Moses when they are almost irrelevant to Christianity.

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I find it odd that, this being the case, Christians don't ditch the OT. They keep it around and pick and chose what they want out of it and throw away the rest claiming that Christ fullfilled this and that. Nowhere in the NT does Jesus state exactly what is to go and what is to stay, so people pick and choose per personnal preference. It doesn't make sense.

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That is pretty much my point, as well.

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How many of you like you steaks rare?

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I don't. I want that thing cooked.

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Blech. Well-done steak is dry and gross.

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Where I grew up it was common for kids to go deer hunting with there dads and drink the blood of thier first kill.

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Sick.

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Do you think the Massai are sick?

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I don't kill my own food but it's my understanding that strangling is not used amongst the meat packing industry (too inefficient). If I were to know that that steak was strangled I wouldn't eat it.

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I've known people to do this-- something about adrenaline and tender meat.

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Actually, adrenaline makes meat tough and produces a lot of bad flavors.(I work in the specialty food industry)

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God did do all the good stuff and man all the evil, it's true. Biblically anyway.

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Really? According to this passage of Leviticus, God is doing some pretty evil things:26:16
I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
26:17
And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you.
[Injustice] 26:18
And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
26:19
And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
26:20
And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.
26:21 [Injustice]
And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
[Cruelty] [Family Values] [Injustice]
26:22
I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children , and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.
26:23
And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
[Injustice] 26:24
Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
[Cruelty] [Injustice]
26:25
And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
26:26
And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
26:27
And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
[Injustice] 26:28
Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
[Family Values] [Cruelty] [Injustice]
26:29
And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
26:30
And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
26:31
And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.
26:32
And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
[Cruelty] [Injustice]
26:33
And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.

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Originally posted by zipzip:
I don't understand, what is the point of taking this out of context? The beginning of the passage is earlier:

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If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, I will send you rain in its season, and the ground will yield its crops and the trees of the field their fruit. Your threshing will continue until grape harvest and the grape harvest will continue until planting, and you will eat all the food you want and live in the safety in your land.
I will grant peace in the land, and you will lie down and no one will make you afraid....
...I will look on you with favor and make you fruitful and increase your numbers and I will keep my covenant with you...
v.14: But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail t carry out all my commands, and so violate my covenant, then I will do this to you...
v.18: If after all this you will not listen to me...
v.21: If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me...
v.23: If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me...
v.27: If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile to me...
v.40: But if they will confess their sins and the sins of their fathers -- their treachery against me and their hostility toward me...

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In other words, these people just would not get the picture and God removed his blessing from them.

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The grand sweep of the history of Israel is one of a wayward child that continually cycles between desperate wickedness and disobedience (anywhere from sacrificing on the high places to sacrificing children to Molech like their neighbors) and acknowledgment of the one true God. Despite their incredible history of betrayal, forgetfulness, and ingratitude, God repeatedly takes Israel back.

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Funk made the claim that God only did good.God doesn't make that claim. God very much is the cause of suffering in the above passage, so I don't know why Funk thinks that God doesn't cause bad things to happen.Why does it matter if it is a punishment for not following him? Bad is bad. Revenge and punishment is revenge and piunishment. God does it.

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Agnostics by definition claim to not know if there is a God. Therefore by extension agnostics cannot know what is reasonable.

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What? Why do you think you can make any claim "by extension"?It is through empiricism and reason that Agnostics come to their result, Gene.

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That would presuppose that I believe the agnostic worldview (that there is not enough information) is valid. Clearly I do not, therefore that is not my claim.

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What information do you have which would constitute evidence for God's existence?

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Santa == zero evidence. God == zero evidence.

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So it is your belief that anything with zero evidence for it clearly does not exist?

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I think the point is that it is not REASONABLE to assume it exists without evidence.Do you think it is reasonable to believe that Santa Claus exists?

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One exception: Love. Who can explain to me why my heart soars when my daughter tells me that I have a thin spot on top of my head?

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Shiloh

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Love is a part of social bonding, and has evolved just as all other emotions have evolved.Feelings of affection and protectiveness towards offspring is not exclusive to humans by any means; it is common among large numbers of mammals and birds.We are also very heavily influenced by our cultures that love is a value and that we express it and receive it in certain ways.It doesn't have to be magic.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zipzip:
[B]Shiloh, I agree mostly about bad things happening and it not being God's direct action. But almost any Christian will tell you that God has intervened directly in their lives, and is a real presence to them. Remember the scripture where Elijah waits for God and the storm and the earthquake pass, but he is not in either of those? Instead he is a quiet voice; I think that is how God is most evident in the lives of most people.I don't think the huge catastrophic interventions we like to think about when we hear the word 'miracle' happen very often. But at some point they will again -- the Bible says Christ is coming back in person, and if he does that should qualify as direct intervention. [/QUOTE]And yet when people are saved from some horrible fate, they very frequently proclaim it a miracle, God's will, or "nothing happens by accident."Even professional athletes kneel and thank God when they score a touchdown or whatever.This belief that God gives personal blessings and "saves" or helps people very directly is extremely prevelant.It frankly disgusted me that Christians who survived the 9/11 attack talked about how they were saved by the grace of God.What about all of those people who died horrible deaths? Did God not like them as much?

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Originally posted by zipzip:
No, it is germaine to the discussion. Santa Claus was held up as an example of pure myth, even though his existence appears to be based in actual history. My point is that not all old stories should be treated the same, because many old stories may have a basis in fact and may teach us something instructive. The decision to use our faculties for judicious (and if needed, subtle) discrimination is key if this discussion is to lead us anwhere except deeper into ignorance.

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Well, the way I meant it was, "Do you believe that Santa Claus, the big fat old man who comes down chimneys on Christmas night and puts presents under the tree for all the good boys and girls and has a sleigh pulled by eight tiny flying reindeer really exists?There is no evidence for THAT Santa.