We didn't pray

Is that a question or a paraphrase?

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God takes care of the just and unjust alike, why should there be a question? Nobody has ever said that good things are ONLY the result of prayer, we expect them to happen generally, because God is a good God.But if one does get stuck as Ringo imagined, in a blizzard under lifethreatening conditions, and your own ingenuity isn't enough to find a way out of your predicament (it happens), I recommend praying.This message has been edited by Faith, 03-08-2006 03:51 PM

In The Right Stuff, Tom Wolfe explained that "your own ingenuity" doesn't run out until that final SPLAT. There's always something more that you can try.Prayer is fine as a parallel to actions, but it should never be a substitute.

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"Oh Lord, give me the wisdom to figure this out."

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Glad to hear your trip went nicely!I believe God works in ways we cant imagine...i think everbody wants an explaination for everything and in reality you'r not going to get it... its like saying God is mean because he pushed the bath water up into new orleans and we're comfortable putting blame on something or somebody.. isnt that the american way?I think its great to enjoy the good things that happen in life, but be sure to have 'lifes' insurance policy for when you get hit with something you didnt want, because it will/is happen/ing on an individual and global scale

Ofcourse, I believe that Shraff, or anyone, has the capacity for faith.Faith and success? Not sure they're related.In my experience, only my none-selfish or necessity-based prayers, are abundantly answered. What I "want", well, if we went on what I want alone, in prayer experiments, then you would certainly have to conclude there is no God. In that respect, God is not interested in what we want or think, or in "success".Success, as in the worldly context, is not Godly, IMHO. Christ came as a servant.

Nobody has advocated prayer as a substitute. The Donner Party ran out of ingenuity. It happens. I have no idea whether they prayed or not.

Yes, a practical approach. No believer need bother to pretend they wouldn't firstly consult their mobile phone before praying. I think any faith is rewarded though, or atleast it's my belief that it is. For example, just to put yourself in a position of danger requires some faith.

TrueMoney and success can actually be a disaster in disguise... nobody will understand these things when using earthly reasoning. there is no science in faith

Notice anything?I noticed that even if you were correct about a prayer being true, it would still have to be regarded as a post-hoc claim because of our ignorance to bivalence.This is a mis-understanding IMHO. Just because a prayer preceded an event, doesn't mean that it MUST be false because it preceded it. It is only fallacious, if it's preceding it is what is claimed to have caused it. But it's not. The claim is that God caused it because of our specific request. This is slightly different to claiming the preceding factor alone.What the fallacy actually entails, is that the preceding factor is not enough to establish a causal connection. Therefore, a prayer request merely preceding a prayer answer, isn't enough to automatically make it post-hoc/untrue (as with the example below). Infact, it is just an unsupported claim.For example, I coughed and then I found spit on my monitor. Does that mean it's post-hoc?It is not post-hoc, simply because the cough preceded the spit. If I claimed it's preceding it caused it then it's false. But infact, I'm not. I'm claiming the spit from my mouth caused it.Therefore, if all prayers are genuine, then they are still regarded as post-hoc because we can't prove it.Infact an argument from ignorance!We claim X caused P.
Because we can't prove X caused P therefore our claim is untrue.post hoc fallacy - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

Seems fairly obvious to me. Yes. Post hoc means 'after this' so it would be. The fallacy is the notion that just because one thing follows another doesn't mean they are causally related. You need more information to know if they are causally related. Thus for prayer "I prayed and I got better. The praying made me get better" is the fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc.It MIGHT be that the prayer got you better, but the only evidence to base our reasoning is that getting better happened post hoc. Not at all. All things that come after things are post hoc. It is a fallacy only when you assert that the reason something happened was because of an event which preceded it, with the only reasoning being that the preceding event happened first.If you can't actually demonstrate that prayer worked, you can say I believe that prayer did this.

I thought of a little puzzle from right after Sept. 11, 2001:
Many passengers on those planes were likely praying to their deity to not be killed. The hijackers were likely praying to a slightly different deity to die gloriously. Whose prayers were answered, and what lessons can we learn from that?

i think thats one of the events that happened in my life that truely opened my eyes to the evil/dark side of life even though these exremists have being doing this for years on a smaller scale. they just opened themselves up to who they really are to the western world.
i think there are deep questions that are asked everyday like why did my baby die, or why did this little child die, or why did the tsunami kill a good man, why did i die from this cancer even though i fervidly prayed for 9 days straight? i think random/unexplainable things will happen until the end of time and to understand the mind of God on the level we would like to know is kinda like trying to put together a model of a 4th dimensional universe in one that only allows 3... it just wont happeni actually got refused trying to start a similar thread about the Gods' of extremists. In my eyes.. the devil has his hands in there...

quote:

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The hijackers were likely praying to a slightly different deity to die gloriously.

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i believe the difference is far from slight. good and bad are polar opposites.

funny thing is.... at least on 9/11 their (extremists) prayers were answered. The Christian passengers' prayers were not.If there is a God and she answers prayers, it sure ain't the Christian God.the devil doesn't even come into it.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."