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Author Topic:   We didn't pray
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 31 of 126 (293534)
03-09-2006 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by veiledvirtue
03-08-2006 10:56 PM


good vs bad prayers
veiledvirtue writes:
quote:
The hijackers were likely praying to a slightly different deity to die gloriously.
i believe the difference is far from slight. good and bad are polar opposites.
Irrelevant. The fact remains that the God who stands for 'bad' answered their prayers.
The God who stands for 'good' at best ignored them.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by veiledvirtue, posted 03-08-2006 10:56 PM veiledvirtue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by veiledvirtue, posted 03-09-2006 1:24 PM Legend has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 32 of 126 (293560)
03-09-2006 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by sidelined
03-08-2006 11:19 AM


What are the criteria for considering a prayer answered other than personal post hoc assumption?
I think perhaps it is a more likely scenario that humans fool tthemselves into believing that prayer was answered or not based on a mindset that allows for either outcome to be acceptable without refuting the basic premise.
Actually, I think asking the criteria for answered prayer or for God's existence is a lot like asking what the criteria are for proof in a civil case (so that "beyond a shadow of doubt" doesn't apply as in a criminal case) as to whether a crime was committed. It depends on the crime, circumstances, etc., and the evidence presented could vary greatly. What would constitute "proof" would vary from person to person.
Recently an 80-year-old woman who lives here in the village had to get her shoulder operated on, because a break in the humurus (sp?) wasn't healing right. It was causing her some pain. I prayed for her, but not very diligently, and when she went in, she had a bladder infection and the surgery was postponed. I really felt like I hadn't prayed as I ought, and now she had another week of shoulder discomfort to face, and so during that week I prayed properly and got others to pray with me. I prayed that the surgery and recovery would go as smoothly as possible.
Surgery went great. That evening she had a stroke. The next morning I heard the stroke was severe and the doctor's were fearing she'd not recover.
I was crushed. In fact, I was pretty angry. I walked around outside and asked God what was going on and why this would happen. I was pretty downcast when I went in. It's not that I expect everything I ask for, or we ask for, to happen, but I guess I did expect to have some feeling, in advance, that what I was asking for wouldn't happen.
That evening, I heard that she had unexpectedly woke up, and that she recognized people, answered questions with nods, and had feeling everywhere. No paralysis.
She got rapidly better, and though she's still in the hospital, they expect a full recovery.
All of that I consider proof of nothing. I learned some things from it, because I already believed, but there's no conclusions that can be drawn from such anecdotes.
On the other hand, about 20 years ago my sister wrote me to tell me that her 2-year-old son was blind in one eye from an infection and that the other eye was not starting to lose its sight from the same infection. This infection had been going on a year, and it was the reason she had moved to Andrews AFB near a big medical center, whose name I forget. I knew she had moved, but she hadn't told me about the infection or that the AF had moved her for the medical problem.
She said the doctors didn't know what to do, and could we pray. I prayed with two friends, and I felt like our prayers were heard, but we couldn't quite "get all the way through." It was a weird feeling, really.
I was in Germany, and it took a week for her mail to reach us. Two weeks after our prayer, she wrote to say my nephew had 100% of his sight back in both eyes, and that the infection was almost gone, but not all the way.
That probably proves nothing to skeptics, but it was a massive faith builder to me, and I am quite convinced that my nephew's eyes were healed in answer to our prayers by the hand of God.
One more.
In India, this January, we went to visit a "Mercy Home," where up to ten orphaned or half-orphaned children are raised in a household with one couple. We arrived, and there was an additional girl, 8 years old, that was there that Pastor Daniel, whom we were traveling with, hadn't expected. He was immediately told why the girl was there.
It appears that in early December he had visited the same Mercy Home and the child had been brought to him to be prayed for. She had cancer of the stomach, and the doctors were ready to give up, and so they were there to ask for prayer. He didn't know what they were there for, and they didn't catch him until he was on the way out, in somewhat of a hurry. So he didn't ask why the child was brought to him. He simply picked her up and prayed, "God, give them whatever they're asking for." Then he pressed on.
They brought the child to the Mercy Home while we were visiting so they could report to him that the child was completely healed. They were very excited.
I've heard reports like that before, but always from a friend of someone's cousin, twice-removed. You know the stories. I've heard plenty of them. There was nothing about this story that seemed made up, though. I obviously believe in miracles from God, thinking I've experienced many, but I'm a skeptic when others tell me about them, because I've been a part of the charismatic movement and left because I got tired of made up stories about miracles.
Anyway, my point is that I don't think there are hard and fast rules about what constitutes answered prayer. Everyone is different and every situation is different and must be judged accordingly, just like every court case is judged on its own particular evidence. Each witness is assigned a certain level of credibility by each individual that hears that witness. That's just how things are.
I'm a believer, and while I'm as human and biased and prone to looking for patterns based on the evolutionary development of the human brain as everyone else, I think that once you get enough cases like the above, you have to wonder if there is something more than chance and coincidence going on around us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by sidelined, posted 03-08-2006 11:19 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by sidelined, posted 03-09-2006 10:08 AM truthlover has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 33 of 126 (293570)
03-09-2006 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by truthlover
03-09-2006 9:53 AM


truthlover
Anyway, my point is that I don't think there are hard and fast rules about what constitutes answered prayer.
I have noticed here that you gave us examples where the outcome was in favour of the people you prayed for. Now can you list the number of times that you prayed and it did not result in a favourable outcome?
This message has been edited by sidelined, Thu, 2006-03-09 08:08 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by truthlover, posted 03-09-2006 9:53 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by truthlover, posted 03-09-2006 10:51 AM sidelined has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 34 of 126 (293588)
03-09-2006 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
03-06-2006 9:34 AM


"No one can receive anything except it come from heaven." John 3:27
If that is the case, then you received this from God and if you were a praying believer, then your prayers would have been answered.
Because of post-hoc reasoning, this is not an argument that God did it, but rather an assumption that God did it.
If I were in your shoes, I would have given God the credit because I believe that everything I receive comes from Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 03-06-2006 9:34 AM nator has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 35 of 126 (293596)
03-09-2006 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by sidelined
03-09-2006 10:08 AM


Now can you list the number of times that you prayed and it did not result in a favourable outcome?
Sure. It's never happened.
No, I'm just kidding. I haven't kept track on either side. Of course, when the situation is your nephew going blind, you can never forget, so that's marked down in my memory permanently.
I know that we had a sister here die of some mysterious malady a few years ago. The hospital told us that it was a blood infection, and they couldn't tell us anything else. (We think it was undiagnosed appendicitis, so to the end they didn't want to tell us they missed it and her appendix burst.) She was sent home by the emergency room on Saturday as just having a virus or even just gas, and then we went back in on Thursday when it became clear she wasn't getting better. It took till Saturday morning for her to die, and obviously we prayed for 36 hours, although some time in the midst of that we felt that God was taking her home, so we stopped praying for her recovery.
Whether that was an unfavorable outcome depends on your point of view. However, we've definitely prayed for children that we felt were in the hands of parents that qualified as abusive and things just continued unchanged. And we've certainly prayed for people to repent who did not.
Maybe a neat example of someone who did keep careful track was Amy Carmichael, a missionary to India, whose Dohnavur Fellowship we were able to see on this India trip. She spent her life rescuing young girls from a life of temple prostitution and abuse. She prayed her way through court battles and whatever else she had to face to rescue girls in a strongly patriarchal society in early 20th century, British-owned India, and she describes the incredible agony of the losses they faced.
Jonathon Goforth was a missionary to China who had four of his nine children die in early childhood to disease while living over there. Amy Carmichael desribes children lost to fever and other maladies.
Amy Carmichael documented her stories so well that one could probably collect statistics on rescues vs. non-rescues, answered prayer to financial requests, and children who got well vs. those who didn't.
Exact statistics may not be necessary, though. Enough amazing coincidences can add up to pretty convincing evidence of some sort of unexplained intervention even if there's repeated occurrences of no change.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by sidelined, posted 03-09-2006 10:08 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by sidelined, posted 03-09-2006 12:43 PM truthlover has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 36 of 126 (293655)
03-09-2006 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by truthlover
03-09-2006 10:51 AM


truthlover
The reason I was inquiring is that it is a error that occurs in human thinking in which we count the hits and ignore the misses.
In other words,you remember well the times when you prayed and the person got better because this is significant in your life and supports your beliefs . But, as you show here, you do not keep tabs on the times when it does not happen so there is no way we can judge these events to be relevant to the prayer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by truthlover, posted 03-09-2006 10:51 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by truthlover, posted 03-09-2006 5:40 PM sidelined has not replied

  
veiledvirtue
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 126 (293675)
03-09-2006 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Legend
03-09-2006 7:34 AM


Re: good vs bad prayers
im afraid you totally missed my points and i believe you will only hear what you want to. kind of the way the 21th century has evolved into. i can understand what youre saying.. but you cant 'hear' what im saying.
until you can truly 'listen' and understand all sides, true knowledge and wisdom will stay dormant. until then.. enjoy the confusion
This message has been edited by veiledvirtue, 03-09-2006 12:29 PM
This message has been edited by veiledvirtue, 03-09-2006 12:32 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Legend, posted 03-09-2006 7:34 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by sidelined, posted 03-09-2006 1:38 PM veiledvirtue has replied
 Message 40 by Legend, posted 03-09-2006 2:16 PM veiledvirtue has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 38 of 126 (293682)
03-09-2006 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by veiledvirtue
03-09-2006 1:24 PM


Re: good vs bad prayers
veiledvirtue
im afraid you totally missed my points and i believe you will only hear what you want to.
I think you presume more than you can validate VV since your reply here.
i believe the difference is far from slight. good and bad are polar opposites.
does not answer either coragyps or Legends rebuttals.
You are, of course, free to disengage from further debate but I think this is a personal cop-out of having to defend and explain your POV.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by veiledvirtue, posted 03-09-2006 1:24 PM veiledvirtue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by veiledvirtue, posted 03-09-2006 1:52 PM sidelined has replied

  
veiledvirtue
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 126 (293687)
03-09-2006 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by sidelined
03-09-2006 1:38 PM


Re: good vs bad prayers
quote:
but I think this is a personal cop-out of having to defend and explain your POV.
well.. i am pretty busy right now. and tend to get right to the point without wasting our time in a long delicate diatribe. my tolerance to people that dont listen is pretty low.. i guess thats one of my faults
let me just say ..you cant test or formulate good and bad... you either do what you want and learn the hard way from the mistakes or allow to be guided which makes things easier..
This message has been edited by veiledvirtue, 03-09-2006 12:53 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by sidelined, posted 03-09-2006 1:38 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by sidelined, posted 03-10-2006 11:10 AM veiledvirtue has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 40 of 126 (293705)
03-09-2006 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by veiledvirtue
03-09-2006 1:24 PM


Re: good vs bad prayers
veiledvirtue writes:
until you can truly 'listen' and understand all sides, true knowledge and wisdom will stay dormant. until then.. enjoy the confusion
In my past experience the Christian definition of 'listening' is : 'accepting what I tell you despite it contradicting reality, other parts of the Bible and common sense'.
I take it you're using the word in the same manner.
You can, ofcourse, prove me wrong by explaining how the fact that 'good and bad are polar opposites' answers Coragyps's point about the hijackers prayers being answered.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by veiledvirtue, posted 03-09-2006 1:24 PM veiledvirtue has not replied

  
veiledvirtue
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 126 (293737)
03-09-2006 4:26 PM


quote:
You can, ofcourse, prove me wrong by explaining how the fact that 'good and bad are polar opposites' answers Coragyps's point about the hijackers prayers being answered.
im not going to play games of trying to prove people wrong.. and who can be right more times than the next guy. thats not my gig
do i think unfortunate events happen in life?.. yes I think they happen all the time. beyond the control of what we want out of our greed
Do i think there are forces amoung us? Yes
Do i pretend to have God figured out? No.. we are about as smart as ants.. so dont think you can try to map out the universe and its agenda.. youre chasing your tail
Do i think the highjackers were good men?.. No
Do i think the HJ'ers were praying to a real God? No
Do i think the passengers were praying to a real God? I dont know... I guess it dependant on where their hearts were.
humble yourself,learn, and really listen.. thats all you can do
This message has been edited by veiledvirtue, 03-09-2006 03:30 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by dsv, posted 03-10-2006 7:47 AM veiledvirtue has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 42 of 126 (293746)
03-09-2006 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by sidelined
03-09-2006 12:43 PM


The reason I was inquiring is that it is a error that occurs in human thinking in which we count the hits and ignore the misses.
Yes, I knew what you were saying. I've heard that before. It's a valid point left alone by itself, but there are situations where even if this is true, it's irrelevant.
If a person, who regularly traveled from Nashville to Memphis, one day drove the 200 miles in half an hour, driving the same speed he always did, and doesn't remember passing Jackson on the way, then all the times he drove it in 3 hours are irrelevant. He does not need to remember or count them (except for IRS purposes). Something happened that is worth investigating.
There comes a point where enough has happened in answer to prayer that there's something to wonder about, no matter how many prayers weren't answered. Where that line is and what sort of answers it would take to cross that line may vary from person to person, but if there are enough valid "hits" of sufficient unlikeliness, then the misses don't have to be counted.

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 Message 66 by nator, posted 03-11-2006 3:48 PM truthlover has replied

  
dsv
Member (Idle past 4724 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 43 of 126 (293880)
03-10-2006 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by veiledvirtue
03-09-2006 4:26 PM


"veiledvirtue" writes:
Do i think the passengers were praying to a real God? I dont know... I guess it dependant on where their hearts were.
Wow. As I remember all the various families of the passengers that were continuously interviewed months and months after 9/11, I can't help but get a rather clear image of just how depressing a lot of Christian thinking can be.
What is the problem with the passengers? Were they thinking about some kind of human pleasure before the hijacking? Give me a break.
I consider myself agnostic and open to a great many religions but I would be hard pressed to be a Christian. I just couldn't sleep at night with that kind of HATE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by veiledvirtue, posted 03-09-2006 4:26 PM veiledvirtue has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by veiledvirtue, posted 03-10-2006 11:27 AM dsv has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 44 of 126 (293893)
03-10-2006 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by truthlover
03-09-2006 5:40 PM


Did you really do 400mph down the freeway? Now that's on fire for Jesus.
It's a good point you make though.
I was thinking about misses and hits. There's also another factor; misses can't determine whether God is false. He could be rejecting your prayer request or not exist. There is no way to determine which.
But with hits, God can be verified IMHO. Either it's chance, or if the hits are exceptional, then it seems reasonable to suggest it is the one we are asking to cause these events, who actually caused them.
...I don't know about you, but sometimes I pray for things I want at the time, but I don't really know what I want or need, like most humans. This could also answer for misses, them being God's better judgement/plan.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 45 by Phat, posted 03-10-2006 9:50 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 126 (293918)
03-10-2006 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by mike the wiz
03-10-2006 8:36 AM


A Likely Scenario
Mike The Wiz writes:
...I don't know about you, but sometimes I pray for things I want at the time, but I don't really know what I want or need, like most humans. This could also answer for misses, them being God's better judgement/plan.
Sounds like a plausible scenario of how God works.
Does God answer prayer like Aladdins Genie or does God answer prayer foreknowing our actual needs and in light of a much bigger picture?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by mike the wiz, posted 03-10-2006 8:36 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
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