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Author Topic:   Is God Omnipresent?
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 46 of 86 (294684)
03-12-2006 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by robinrohan
03-12-2006 8:53 PM


Imperfect Gods
All I was saying was that the concept of "God" makes no sense as an imperfect being.
Makes no sense to you, perhaps. However the God of the bible appears to be imperfect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by robinrohan, posted 03-12-2006 8:53 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by robinrohan, posted 03-12-2006 9:04 PM nwr has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 86 (294687)
03-12-2006 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by robinrohan
03-12-2006 8:16 PM


Re: The argument
quote:
There would be no way to recognize non-perfection without have something perfect to compare it with.
If there is a definition of perfection (something for which I have asked you), then we could compare God to the definition to see whether she fits it or not.
-
quote:
By definition, nothing could be anterior to God.
What is it that you mean when you say God? Perhaps the problem is I am getting mixed up with different conceptions of God.
-
quote:
There are only 2 choices: (1) the universe in some form has always existed; or (2)a being created it.
We have been through this one before. This is simply an assertian on your part for which you have never given any reason to accept.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by robinrohan, posted 03-12-2006 8:16 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by robinrohan, posted 03-12-2006 9:06 PM Chiroptera has replied
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 03-12-2006 9:13 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 86 (294688)
03-12-2006 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by nwr
03-12-2006 9:00 PM


Re: Imperfect Gods
Makes no sense to you, perhaps. However the God of the bible appears to be imperfect.
I wasn't talking about the God of the Bible. I was speaking philosophically. The ideal--by definition--is God. Therefore, such terms as "evil god" make no sense.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 03-12-2006 08:04 PM

This message is a reply to:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 86 (294691)
03-12-2006 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Chiroptera
03-12-2006 9:03 PM


Re: The argument
This is simply an assertian on your part for which you have never given any reason to accept.
Those 2 choices are the only possible choices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Chiroptera, posted 03-12-2006 9:03 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Chiroptera, posted 03-12-2006 9:10 PM robinrohan has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 86 (294693)
03-12-2006 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by robinrohan
03-12-2006 9:06 PM


Re: The argument
The universe may have suddenly begun to exist for no reason whatsoever. So there is at least one more possibility.
If you don't like that possibility, bring it to the appropriate thread.
At any rate you have not yet given a description of your "ideal" to tell whether it can be evil or not. You simply keep stating that, according to your "philosophical definition" God cannot be evil.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by robinrohan, posted 03-12-2006 9:06 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by robinrohan, posted 03-12-2006 9:21 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 51 of 86 (294695)
03-12-2006 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Chiroptera
03-12-2006 9:03 PM


Re: The argument
There are only 2 choices: (1) the universe in some form has always existed; or (2)a being created it.
quote:
We have been through this one before. This is simply an assertian on your part for which you have never given any reason to accept.
I guess the way to answer this is to come up with a third possibility since he says these are the only two possibilities. Do you have a third?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Chiroptera, posted 03-12-2006 9:03 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Chiroptera, posted 03-12-2006 9:18 PM Faith has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 86 (294700)
03-12-2006 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
03-12-2006 9:13 PM


Re: The argument
Hi, Faith.
I did give a third possibility.
A fourth would be to recognize that the time coordinate has a definite starting point, before which there is no "before" -- like asking what is north of the north pole. Therefore, trying to think about the "cause" of the universe has problems -- "cause" or "creation" implies that there is a moment in time in which there is no universe, and then a moment when there is -- but that "moment in time" when there is no universe did not exist, since time begins the same time as the universe. In other words, the universe has always existed.
Again, this may not be the appropriate thread for this.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 03-12-2006 9:13 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by robinrohan, posted 03-12-2006 9:23 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 86 (294701)
03-12-2006 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Chiroptera
03-12-2006 9:10 PM


Re: The argument
The universe may have suddenly begun to exist for no reason whatsoever.
This makes no sense. Something had to cause it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Chiroptera, posted 03-12-2006 9:10 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Chiroptera, posted 03-12-2006 9:26 PM robinrohan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 86 (294702)
03-12-2006 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Chiroptera
03-12-2006 9:18 PM


Re: The argument
A fourth would be to recognize that the time coordinate has a definite starting point, before which there is no "before" -- like asking what is north of the north pole. Therefore, trying to think about the "cause" of the universe has problems -- "cause" or "creation" implies that there is a moment in time in which there is no universe, and then a moment when there is -- but that "moment in time" when there is no universe did not exist, since time begins the same time as the universe. In other words, the universe has always existed.
This is mumbo-jumbo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Chiroptera, posted 03-12-2006 9:18 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Chiroptera, posted 03-12-2006 9:25 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 86 (294704)
03-12-2006 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by robinrohan
03-12-2006 9:23 PM


Re: The argument
quote:
This is mumbo-jumbo.
I get that same feeling from your posts.
At any rate, what is mumbo-jumbo is talking about actions like creation or causing when there is no place or time for these actions to occur.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by robinrohan, posted 03-12-2006 9:23 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 86 (294705)
03-12-2006 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by robinrohan
03-12-2006 9:21 PM


Argument by incredulity?
It makes perfect sense to me. As does a universe that has always existed.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by robinrohan, posted 03-12-2006 9:21 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by robinrohan, posted 03-12-2006 9:30 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 86 (294707)
03-12-2006 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Chiroptera
03-12-2006 9:26 PM


Re: Argument by incredulity?
It makes perfect sense to me
Nothing can come from nothing. Think again.
As does a universe that has always existed
Of course.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Chiroptera, posted 03-12-2006 9:26 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Chiroptera, posted 03-12-2006 9:32 PM robinrohan has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 86 (294709)
03-12-2006 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by robinrohan
03-12-2006 9:30 PM


Re: Argument by incredulity?
quote:
Nothing can come from nothing.
You keep saying that as if it were an argument.
-
quote:
Think again.
I suggest that you cease thinking that your own conceptual difficulties should be universal.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by robinrohan, posted 03-12-2006 9:30 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by robinrohan, posted 03-12-2006 9:34 PM Chiroptera has replied
 Message 60 by robinrohan, posted 03-12-2006 9:35 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 86 (294710)
03-12-2006 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Chiroptera
03-12-2006 9:32 PM


Re: Argument by incredulity?
You keep saying that as if it were an argument.
It is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Chiroptera, posted 03-12-2006 9:32 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Chiroptera, posted 03-12-2006 9:35 PM robinrohan has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 86 (294711)
03-12-2006 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Chiroptera
03-12-2006 9:32 PM


Re: Argument by incredulity?
I suggest that you cease thinking that your own conceptual difficulties should be universal
Logic pierces the veil of subjectivity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Chiroptera, posted 03-12-2006 9:32 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
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