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Author Topic:   Do animals have souls?
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 31 of 303 (295043)
03-13-2006 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
03-13-2006 7:56 PM


Creavolution: Hello there
Faith: Hi again
The translation of Ecclesiastes that you are quoting is no doubt from the KJV, which is not the best english translation of the Bible out there, let alone for this particular verse. Although the New King James Version agrees with the KJV reading, the best way to translate it is as the NIV and TNIV does:
"Who knows IF the spirit of man rises upward and IF the spirit of the animal goes down into the Earth?"
It's not asking if we know these spirits, but where they go when the body of each dies. And in the context of the paragraph, it is stating that people are like beasts in death. It even says in verse 19 that man has no advantage over the animals (and the context of this section is about death) If humans have no advantage over animals in death, how is it that humans and not animals survive after death in the form of an immortal spirit? I would certainly call that an advantage. Even in the same verse (19) it says that all (humans and animals) have the same "breath" which can also mean "spirit" (see notes at bottom of the page this verse is on in the NIV)
The NIV/TNIV rendering of this verse (which agrees better with the Hebrew than the KJV ( see "The New American Commentary: Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Songs." based on NIV text, pages 303-305 and footnotes as well)shows that Animal spirits are not defined as going into the Earth (probably meaning "Sheol", the Old testament abode of the Dead, said to be in the Earth, identified with the New Testament "Hades")but questions if mankind has a better afterlife awaiting him than the animals. And by this section of scripture, and the powerful punch of Ecclesiastes 3:21, it implies that animals do indeed have a spirit.
I have to go to sleep. Me tired. See y'all later.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 03-13-2006 7:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 03-14-2006 12:16 PM LudoRephaim has replied

LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 32 of 303 (295045)
03-13-2006 11:44 PM


I hope I didn't sound harsh in my last post. I didn't mean to be rude. I was just trying to explain, that's all.
I like Faith, and everybody on here, just about

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Heathen, posted 03-14-2006 10:36 AM LudoRephaim has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 33 of 303 (295081)
03-14-2006 2:06 AM


I have thought about this a fair bit. I tend to believe that consciousness is evidence that there is something in us that is beyond the physical. In observing animals it certainly appears to me that mammals at least, have a sense of self or consciouness even though it seems less highly developed than our own. I think they will be in the next life with us.
There are so many more questions than there are answers. When I get to heaven I'm definitely going to all the lectures.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 34 of 303 (295186)
03-14-2006 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by LudoRephaim
03-13-2006 11:44 PM


You didn't sound harsh/rude at all Ludo.
But I'm interested to know on what basis you think your particular translation of the scripture is the correct one?
This is something that troubles me, we have one simple line of scripture and already we are presented with 3 different understandings of it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-13-2006 11:44 PM LudoRephaim has replied

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 Message 36 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-14-2006 12:32 PM Heathen has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 35 of 303 (295223)
03-14-2006 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by LudoRephaim
03-13-2006 11:42 PM


Checking the various translations I see that you are right that many of them do translate it with "whether" or "if" or imply that meaning. Checking the Hebrew, however, doesn't SEEM to bear out that translation.
HOWEVER, since I once had a little cat I was particularly close to, that was especially devoted to me, I think because I took extraordinary measures to save her from distemper, I'd love to meet her again -- many other pets too but she was special. The raccoon I rescued too, she'd be fun to meet again. I think I'll just leave it for a surprise though.
Actually I do have fond fantasies of getting to pet lions and tigers and bears in the next world. I hope that's possible.
Anyway, here are the references I dug up:
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
For who can prove that the human spirit goes upward and the spirit of animals goes downward into the earth?
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust
NKJV-Ecc 3:21- Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson
NASB-Ecc 3:21- Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast descends downward to the earth?
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation
RSV-Ecc 3:21- Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down to the earth?
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.
Webster-Ecc 3:21- Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Noah Webster Version 1833 Info
Young-Ecc 3:21- Who knoweth the spirit of the sons of man that is going up on high, and the spirit of the beast that is going down below to the earth?
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info
Darby-Ecc 3:21- Who knoweth the spirit of the children of men? Doth it go upwards? and the spirit of the beasts, doth it go downwards to the earth?
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info
ASV-Ecc 3:21- Who knoweth the spirit of man, whether it goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast, whether it goeth downward to the earth?
American Standard Version 1901 Info
HNV-Ecc 3:21- Who knows the spirit of man, whether it goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, whether it goes downward to the eretz?"
And the original language source:
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
If the above link doesn't work, find the verse, Ecc 3:21 at Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
and click on "C" for "Concordance" in the blocks of letters to the left of it for the Hebrew and Greek Septuagint originals. There is nothing in the Hebrew that I see that implies an "if " or a "whether".
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-14-2006 12:17 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-13-2006 11:42 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-14-2006 12:40 PM Faith has not replied

LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 36 of 303 (295226)
03-14-2006 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Heathen
03-14-2006 10:36 AM


When it comes to translations, the TNIV and NIV are far better and more up to date than the KJV. Remember the KJV was translated in 1611, while the NIV and TNIV where translated in the 20th and 21 centuries, respectively. We have learned a lot more about the ancient Hebrew language since 1611. Plus the Dead Sea scrolls where not known to the KJV translators. THe commentary I told about in my last post on this thread pretty much makes a solid case that the NIV rendition in this passage is more accurate and faithful to the Hebrew than the KJV rendering, and it agrees with the context of the paragraph it is in. THis section of Ecclesiastes is showing that man is no better off than animals when it comes to death. To render this verse in the KJV way would cause a spasm in the context, while the NIV/TNIV translations bring home powerfully what Solomon was trying to say.
And most modern translations tend to agree. The ESV (English Standard Version) renders the passage as such:
"Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of of the beast goes into the Earth?"
Some might say that this is going against the TNIV in it's rendering, but in reality it is saying the same thing. If it was trying to say that animal spirits go into the Earth (the Netherworld)then it would have been translated like this:
"Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward, or the spirit of the beast that goes into the Earth?"
But it doesn't render it this way, because it goes against the Hebrew as well as the context. And remember that the ESV is also a recent translation, and is far better in translation than the KJV. I use it as my study Bible (but it isn't my only one)
THe NASB (New American Standard) renders "spirit" as "Breath" but this is misleading, since the context is dealing with death and the afterlife, not whether the carbon dioxide of humans goes upward and the carbon dioxide of animals go into the Earth LOL . PLus, even though the NASB is the most literal Translation you will find, sometimes the most literal is not the best. My Spanish teacher told us that people began to use the "got Milk" advertisement in Mexico, but when they translated it literally, it came out "are you Lactating" ROFLMAO!!! So sometimes too literal can mislead, as is here. Plus, if it really meant "breath" it would no doubt mean the "breath of life" that all people and animals are given by God (see Genesis 1:30) and is believed by some scholars to mean the spirit (See "Zondervan's Pictorial Bible Dictionary" page 807, under "soul" and compare Genesis 2:7, 1:30, 7:20-22)
The JPS and NAB translate the word Ruach (spirit/breath) as "life-breath" (both humans and animal in the NAB) or "Breath" (for animals, while for humans life-breath in JPS) but even this is still talking about the afterlife and on par with the Hebrew as well as an animal having a spirit, as the commentary on this passage in the "Jewish Study Bible" (using JPS Translation)demonstrates (see page 1610, under commentary on 19-21 and 22 of this chapter of Ecclesiastes.)
Taking this, even the NASB comes in line (and it also doesn't define an animals spirit as going into the Earth, but asks if anybody knows if an animals spirit/breath goes into the Earth.)
THe only modern Translation that I can think of that uses the KJV rendering is the NKJV (New King James Version) but that rendering goes againt the weight of evidence that goes to the contrary, and that translation should not be seen on par with translations like the NASB, Updated NASB, ESV, TNIV, NIV, JPS, NAB, and hordes of others that are more scholarly.
Another way that the KJV and KNJV is falty is it's rendering of "Giants" in Genesis 6:4, when the hebrew is "Nephilim" which means "Fallen ones". Although the Nephilim are giants (NUmbers 13:33) they are more than just giants, considering the supernatural nature of their fathers, the "Sons of God" (i.e Angels), which is one reason why most modern translations will render the word simply "Nephilim" instead of "Giants" (see Genesis 6:4, compare KJV/NKJV with other modern translations, many of which I have just named)
Both the KJV and NKJV are good translations (I own and at times use both to study with, though not without other modern translations to compare verses with)and are quite valuable as liturature (the KJV has some beautiful language) but when it comes to doing an in depth Biblical study and thinking about what the scripture means, you cant do better than the modern translations (and or the original languages, if you know them)
Hope I've helped

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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 37 of 303 (295228)
03-14-2006 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
03-14-2006 12:16 PM


You wont see anything in the strong's word studies that show an "if" but nevertheless the Hebrew should be read that way (see the New American Commentary that I quoted in an earlier thread, and the footnotes)
THe strong's concordance is good, but dont just use that as a source of the meaning of the Hebrew. And remember that most Modern Bible translations agree that the "if" should be in that particular passage (and those that did these translations where far more knowledgable of the Hebrew than Strong was)THe weight of the translations must be considered. And I've already quoted the commentary above which goes in depth into the hebrew (especially the footnotes)
Most modern Bible translations agree with this rendering.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 03-14-2006 12:16 PM Faith has not replied

LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 38 of 303 (295231)
03-14-2006 12:43 PM


Aside from this passage, I can give you some passages that hint at animal afterlife, if you want to examine them. let me know.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Heathen, posted 03-14-2006 1:15 PM LudoRephaim has replied
 Message 46 by lfen, posted 03-26-2006 1:34 AM LudoRephaim has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 39 of 303 (295239)
03-14-2006 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by LudoRephaim
03-14-2006 12:43 PM


Please Do...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-14-2006 12:43 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-14-2006 1:52 PM Heathen has not replied

LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 40 of 303 (295244)
03-14-2006 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Heathen
03-14-2006 1:15 PM


Hey Dude
I cant stay long, but are some:
There are some passages which speak of what could be called "spirit Horses" such as when Elijah is taken up to Heaven (2 Kings 2:11-12)Some could say that the Horses are angels, but there seems to be human-like riders of those chariots (see verse 12) and angels are more than often seen in more human-like forms than animal ones. And the text doesn't show by it's wording that these horses are nothing more that Horses of the spirit kind. This is parralled in a vision that Elisha called for a freind of his to see, and the man saw horses and chariots made of fire, yet nobody else seemed to see them (see 2 Kings 6:17)as well as Revelation 19:11-14, where Jesus and his army are riding on White Horses, and they are pictured in Heaven. Now Revelation is not to be taken entirely literally (it is apocalyptic liturature, prophecy using symbols)and some have claimed that these Horses are angels. but some parts are not so symbolic to leave doubt over who or what the text is talking about (The "rider on the White Horse" who leads the armies of Heaven is described with powerful figurative language, yet you can tell it is Jesus (Compare Revelation 19:13 and 1:9-16 with John 1:1,14, 1 Tim 6:14-15) and usually when angels or demons are mentioned they are often named as such (though not always. See Revelation 9:13-19)and it is quite possible that these Horses could also be nothing more that supernatural Horses, and the other quotes in 2 Kings can bare that out.
This doesn't prove that these Horses are Horses who once lived on Earth and rose into Heaven, and the Horses of Revelation could be Horses, angels or some kind of other supernatural being (possibly a kind of Cherubim)but the passage in Revelation could very well be Horses, and the passages of spirit horses in the Old Testament (those in Historical narrative (such as 2 Kings) and not in Prophetic liturature (such as Isaiah)seem to indicate that not all animals are physical, and maybe hints to an afterlife. You dont need these passages to show so (such as Ecclesiastes 3:21) but these passages should be taken into account. They can be debated, but they shouldn't be ignored.
There are others, but I dont want to spend all day on this. For a good study in this, see the Book "101 Answers To The Most Asked Questions About The End Times" By Mark Hitchcock, a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary, Pastor and an expert on Bible Prophecy. On pages 260-262 of the book he tackles the issue of whether animals will be in Heaven or not. It is very good.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Heathen, posted 03-14-2006 1:15 PM Heathen has not replied

LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 41 of 303 (295254)
03-14-2006 2:35 PM


BTW: I just remembered. The Bible says that God has mass of Chariots: about "twice Ten Thousand" (20,000) and "thousands of thousands" (Psalms 68:17) These seem to be the same charoits that the spirit horses where riding in 2 Kings. I'll have to do some more in depth study of the psalm, but if it refers to these Chariots literally, then the Horses in 2 Kings riding them seem very well literal Horses, but of a spirit kind.
This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 03-14-2006 02:43 PM

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 42 of 303 (295262)
03-14-2006 3:07 PM


yes..no...maybe.
I am with Crashfrog on this one. If humans have souls and humans are animals then animals have souls too. If there is even such a thing as a soul. The problem with the whole dualism and metaphysics is that the supernatural is only available to believers in it. I heard on a tv program about crop circles the other night where a skeptic said if a crop circle was made in a Christmas tree farm he would be impressed. So would I at that.

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-14-2006 3:19 PM 1.61803 has replied

LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 43 of 303 (295271)
03-14-2006 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by 1.61803
03-14-2006 3:07 PM


Re: yes..no...maybe.
Hey there
This discussion is mostly about if animals have souls according to theology and critical thinking. Now Atheists Agnostics in the majority of them probably dont believe in souls, since they have no belief in the supernatural. If that someone's belief, then that is something that I cannot debate (I dont think there is a science of souls, or "Soulology" LOL )but from the Biblical evidence I can. But there is no way that the Non-religious and the religious could do a proper discussion on this together. One will base their views primarily on religious faith and the text of that faith (in this case the Bible) while the other one will base his or her beliefs on strictly science and critical thinking. It is two different dimensions.
I be back.
This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 03-14-2006 03:19 PM

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by 1.61803, posted 03-14-2006 3:07 PM 1.61803 has replied

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 44 of 303 (295276)
03-14-2006 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by LudoRephaim
03-14-2006 3:19 PM


Re: yes..no...maybe.
Your right, I retract my last post.
Please continue with your regularly scheduled discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-14-2006 3:19 PM LudoRephaim has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 303 (298214)
03-26-2006 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by joshua221
03-12-2006 6:29 PM


Re: Good Discussion
Prophex writes:
Why do you guys (those who own pets) like having pets, is there a particular function, or just for enjoyment? Just wondering.
I have a bird...a Conure,(Nanday) and have had her for 27 years. I dont know how long she will live, but I dont want to just dispose of her! She squawks, but is otherwise quite harmless.
How have you been, Charlie? I never hear from Twindrix or his stunt double much any more...is school keeping you busy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by joshua221, posted 03-12-2006 6:29 PM joshua221 has not replied

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