AV writes:
Since originally proposing this topic it has come to my attention that Duane Gish(Senior Vice President of ICR(Institute of Creation Research), maybe future president since Morris' death), a public face of Creationism isn't overly respected by the majority of Creationists. This puts to rest the thoughts I had that his and ICR's way of thinking represented a majority in the movement.
Do you have any stats to verify this claim? It would be my notion that the majority of creationists do respect ICR. I for one do for the most part, but do not agree with all they teach.
AV writes:
He lost me when he claimed the Grand Canyon was cut by a single massive surge of water(great flood) rather than over time by a steady flow.
I have ICR's Grand Canyon video on it's origin and believe they did a good job. Their arguments make sense to those of us who understand how much a global flood inundation would do to the planet.
1. The NT text which you've quoted is not talking a war of violence by humans. It's teaching that we wage the spiritual warfare which will convert the folks into the kingdom of God. As prophesied, in the end God will through Christ, messiah, then rule the world as a rightious kingdom "with a rod of iron" when all will be subject to Jesus. God will effect any judgement necessary to complete this when that time comes.
2. It worked in America, because unlike when the popes and bishops of the dark ages controlled the civilized world, the majority American Christians held to the fundamentals of Christ and the apostles who advocated no oppression or violence. ICR and other prominent creationists have no aspirations of lording it over anyone. They simply tell their story in the media and where ever they can.
That's their right. They debate the majority secularist views in the universities and other public arenas, winning some and loosing some as debates goes.
AV writes:
" We trust science. We trust that scientists have done their work well and honestly when we drive a car over a bridge, ride in an elevator, or undergo a surgical procedure. But we need to be realistic in our trust of scientists. Scientists are human with sin natures just as the rest of the human population. As Christians, when a scientific “breakthrough” is reported we should either examine the evidence for ourselves, or if we are not qualified to discern the data (which in many cases only a specialist in the field would be able to do), we should wait until the data are verified and confirmed by other reputable scientists before claiming it as fact. Unfortunately, many Christians transfer their trust in science to a scientist when he gives an opinion or hypothesis about the origins of the universe, the living world, and humans as well. Many assume that since a scientist said it, “it must be true” even if it apparently contradicts Scripture. From the recent events depicting the problems that a few scientists have had with honesty and integrity, we should remember that they are human and just as prone to sin as the rest of us. When can we fully trust scientists? Just as soon as people stop running red lights! "
Usually when I hear that phrase it goes more like this, "they are human and just as prone to mistakes as the rest of us" though they get a B+ for effort in trying to hide it because the last I checked falsifying findings isn't a sin. Though as it says scientists are prone to mistakes like anyone else, so their findings should be checked by other reputable specialists ... why then do they ignore the fact that many specialists who are not part of their club consider Creationist "science" to be untrue and in some cases entirely speculative?
I don't see what your problem with the quote is. They didn't say falsifying findings is a sin. They simply said we're all human sinners and imperfect beings subject to error. I think it's cool that now with folks like ICR, secularist scientists are held accountable and confronted with people who can present the alternative of creationism in the science arena, something the laypeople on the street are unable to do.
AV writes:
After reading a bit of ICR's website, and a few more like it there is no doubt in my mind that I would not be safe from discrimination living in an area where these people were a majority or had integrated themselves into local politics to a point where they could initiate change(such as forcing a strictly religious topic to be taught in schools).
A current example of problems which could arise from fanatical and uncompromising Creationists like ICR gaining any type of political power(putting aside just for the moment the threat from individuals who support the movement) can be seen in Salt Lake City, which has long had problems seperating Church from State.
What about the extremists in the Creationist movement? The individual zealots, every religion has them and to think a few have not latched onto Creationism is very bad judgment.
The very idea of the movement as put forth by ICR and other similar groups is to wage war against those who refuse to believe, so I ask you what is to stop them from bombing museums and other institutes of learning which don't support Creationism?
Neither ICR nor any other creationist organization I know of in The US has any intentions to ever
wage war aginst those who refuse to believe. They are Biblical fundamentalists who follow the NT fundamentals of nonviolence just as Jesus and all the writers of the NT teach. This is why Biblical fundamentalists who follow these precepts founded this free and blessed republic with it's Constitution, having all the while these Biblical fundamentals as taught by Jesus and his apostles
including Biblical creationism taught in the public schools of the early republic. SLC, again deviated from those Biblical principles. The prime religious book by the majority in that region is not the Bible, but the BOM. They are not Biblical fundamentalists.
AV writes:
Those are the reasons I am afraid of Creationism gaining any type of real power or overwhelming following, the majority of people who believe it may coexist with those who don't ... but the fanatics that can't coexist are the ones that have my attention and influence my opinions the most.
Suffice to say, I think there's a far greater number of things to fear from Creationism than there are from Evolution. The prime one being a degradation of our culture to a more superstitious time, after all what are the wrathful events in the bible if not prettied up magic?
1. Na're fear. North America, the land of the free, unoppressed and blessed was ruled for over two centuries by creationists, beginning with the colonists with the Bible and it's creationism being taught in every school, public and private.
2. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Nearly a
hundred million citizens were murdered by their own secularist governments,
none of which taught Biblical creationism in their public schools last century.
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW