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Author Topic:   We didn't pray
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 76 of 126 (294885)
03-13-2006 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by mike the wiz
03-13-2006 10:43 AM


Re: A Cat Amongst the Pidgeons
fair enough

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by mike the wiz, posted 03-13-2006 10:43 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by mike the wiz, posted 03-13-2006 11:24 AM nator has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 77 of 126 (294890)
03-13-2006 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by nator
03-13-2006 11:02 AM


Confirmation bias
The misses ALWAYS have to be counted, otherwise we have no way of knowing how likely or unlikely any of the hits were.
Otherwise, falling victim to confirmation bias is very nearly a sure thing.
CMIIW, (correct me if I'm wrong) but isn't that precisely confirmation bias?

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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 78 of 126 (294895)
03-13-2006 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by nator
03-13-2006 11:14 AM


Re: A Cat Amongst the Pidgeons
*gasps at Shraff silence*
(a first time for everything eh).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by nator, posted 03-13-2006 11:14 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 79 of 126 (294908)
03-13-2006 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by NosyNed
03-13-2006 11:21 AM


Re: Confirmation bias
Sorry, Ned, I don't understand. Please explain.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 80 of 126 (294909)
03-13-2006 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by mike the wiz
03-13-2006 11:24 AM


Re: A Cat Amongst the Pidgeons
quote:
*gasps at Shraff silence*
(a first time for everything eh).
See what happens when you start giving well-reasoned answers?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by mike the wiz, posted 03-13-2006 11:24 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4058 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 81 of 126 (294937)
03-13-2006 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by nator
03-13-2006 11:02 AM


Re: "enough" is the key word here
Schraf,
I don't know that you really disagree with me on this, and if you do, I really don't understand why.
My responses that follow are building to make one point only.
Well, yes, I'm not saying it was a "normal" occurence. But if you are trying to tell me that this was some kind of supernatural occurence, there is a LOT more in the way of controls and testing I would want to put the guy through before I bought that something other than a freakshow act was going on.
Right and those controls and testing would vary depending on the claim.
I watched a man chew up and eat a lightbulb without harm once, too.
Right, and I'll bet you didn't ask whether he could do this every time or anything about percentages. You did ask, however, how he was able to do this even this one time.
Like I said, unlikely things happen to people all the time.
But eating a light bulb without harm is not an unlikely event, it is a seemingly impossible event. Therefore, the question it raises is not how often, but how it happened at all, just like the guy who stuck a needle through his arm and had it heal in 30 seconds.
For example, isn't it incredibly unlikely for the temperature to be in the 40's in New England in mid-February on the exact days that I would want it to be during my move?
Actually, I don't know, because I've never lived up that way. In this example from your OP, the matter of likelihood and whether this was a one-time occurrence matters a lot.
But I wasn't addressing the example from your OP. You'll notice I didn't answer that post at all, because I don't disagree with the argument in it. I answered a question sidelined asked, which was "What are the criteria for considering a prayer answered...?" I thought it was on topic, so I tackled that one, because I don't think the answer to that question is simple. I think it varies depending on the claim.

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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 82 of 126 (295020)
03-13-2006 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by truthlover
03-13-2006 1:48 PM


Re: "enough" is the key word here
But eating a light bulb without harm is not an unlikely event, it is a seemingly impossible event. Therefore, the question it raises is not how often, but how it happened at all, just like the guy who stuck a needle through his arm and had it heal in 30 seconds.
The key point here is seemingly impossible.
If you Google eat "light bulb" you'll get two references in the first two pages to people who do this very thing - one of them a New York Times Theater Review of a 2003 Off-Broadway show called Carnival Knowledge.
Whether it is a trick - in the sense of being an illusion or fraud - or is for real and so requires training and skill is perhaps an open question, but either way it can be done by professionals.
The point is there is no supernatural element involved, so the only thing percentages of the person doing it coming to harm are going to tell you is how good they are at doing whatever physical actions are required.
I just re-read Schraf's Message 75 and just before she mentions the light bulb eating she says:
Well, yes, I'm not saying it was a "normal" occurence. But if you are trying to tell me that this was some kind of supernatural occurence, there is a LOT more in the way of controls and testing I would want to put the guy through before I bought that something other than a freakshow act was going on.

I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 83 of 126 (295054)
03-14-2006 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by nwr
03-11-2006 1:57 PM


Re: good vs bad prayers
nwr writes:
And what if it turns out that some of the atheists are living the gospel more effectively than are many of the Christians?
They are. Jesus broke down the commandments into two that fullfilled the rest:
NIV writes:
Matt 22:34-40-- Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
If this is the "standard" of the Gospel, it can be argued that most atheists do NOT love the Lord with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength.
On the flipside, however...
It can be also argued that by showing love to the least of these,
(Jars infamous Matthew 25:31-46) anyone who does so is loving God.
I worry about my ability to have such altruistic behavior----especially since I am not told when the "Thief" is gonna break in...and yet by wanting to save my life and protect my "stuff" rather than altruistically treating the least among us with everything I can give them, I am failing to live Christian behavior.
I still believe that my salvation is by foreknown grace and impartation (rather than my behavior brownie points) but I also know that my behavior stems from how much I choose to give Him rather than how much I want to gain.
It is not a natural unction to give away not only the spare coat, but the cloak that one wears.
Maybe I need to find some "nice" atheists to teach me how to do good for the sake of it and without promise of anything in return!
This message has been edited by Phat, 03-13-2006 10:10 PM

Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4058 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 84 of 126 (295215)
03-14-2006 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by MangyTiger
03-13-2006 8:47 PM


Re: "enough" is the key word here
schraf writes:
Well, yes, I'm not saying it was a "normal" occurence. But if you are trying to tell me that this was some kind of supernatural occurence, there is a LOT more in the way of controls and testing I would want to put the guy through before I bought that something other than a freakshow act was going on.
I probably should just have quoted this like you did and said, "It appears to me we agree. I'm not saying anything more than this."
The key point here is seemingly impossible.
I agree with this, too. We have to find out if it's really impossible, and finding that out takes some creativity.
There's some guy, a magician himself, who wrote a book exposing Uri Geller's "psychic" powers, as well as the guy on That's Incredible who could move pages in a phone book by supposed mental power. He was pretty creative about finding out how people did things like that.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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DeclinetoState
Member (Idle past 6437 days)
Posts: 158
Joined: 01-16-2006


Message 85 of 126 (295242)
03-14-2006 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by sidelined
03-08-2006 11:19 AM


A "pat" answer
sidelined posted:
I am curious as to the converse situation in which one prays for everything to go alright and depite this the outcome is a shambles.
Is the prayer to blame? Is it that you weren't sincere enough? Perhaps God was vexed, or you prayed for personal help rather than for anothers and were thus refused? God answers all prayers sometimes the answer is no?
This seems to lead us back toward one of my favorite "pat" answers: "The Lord works in mysterious ways."

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 86 of 126 (295285)
03-14-2006 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
03-06-2006 9:34 AM


Sunny day
The day the terrorists flew into the Twin Towers was a beatiful sunny day. Was God with them?

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Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 87 of 126 (295474)
03-15-2006 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by riVeRraT
03-14-2006 3:48 PM


Re: Sunny day
That is for you to answer.
The ones who asked them to think eh was.
Fred Phillips thinks god let them because of tolerance to homosexuality.
Others beleive they were the agent of Satan.
Only way to tell is to die, talk to god, and find out from the main guy personally, (if he exists).

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 88 of 126 (295526)
03-15-2006 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by riVeRraT
03-14-2006 3:48 PM


Re: Sunny day
riVeRraT writes:
The day the terrorists flew into the Twin Towers was a beatiful sunny day.
The lady I was working for that day made us chocolate chip cookies.
If I was going to pray for cookies, they would be chocolate chip. I presume God would know that.
Do you think maybe God "blinked" for a second while answering my unspoken prayer for chocolate chip cookies? Is that why He didn't stop the attack?

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 89 of 126 (295562)
03-15-2006 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by truthlover
03-14-2006 11:57 AM


Re: "enough" is the key word here
quote:
There's some guy, a magician himself, who wrote a book exposing Uri Geller's "psychic" powers, as well as the guy on That's Incredible who could move pages in a phone book by supposed mental power. He was pretty creative about finding out how people did things like that.
James Randi?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by truthlover, posted 03-14-2006 11:57 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4058 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 90 of 126 (295603)
03-15-2006 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by nator
03-15-2006 1:18 PM


Re: "enough" is the key word here
I couldn't think of his name, but I was thinking he was called The Amazing Randi. I was wondering why I remembered it being spelled with an i. Must be him.

This message is a reply to:
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