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Author Topic:   Ancient bacteria with modern DNA, problem for evolution?
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 1 of 77 (295821)
03-16-2006 3:28 AM


I'm surprised randman hasn't done this one, its right up his alley...
Source 1 (techie science stuff)
Source 2 (BBC article, a way for the layperson to get the gist)
A good few years ago, bacteria was discovered in crystals buried in New Mexico. It was dated at about 250 million years old. The astonishing thing was that the bacteria entombed in the crystal was still alive! Naturally bioinformaticians clamoured over the bacteria and DNA testing was carried in short time.
The discovery was most unusual. Despite the bacteria predating mammals, its DNA was very modern looking. This bacteria was given the name 2-9-3:
As had been noted in earlier studies, a striking observation by Vreeland, Rosenzweig, and Powers (2000) was that the 16S rDNA of isolate 2-9-3 is 99% identical to that of Salibacillus marismortui, a bacterium isolated from the Dead Sea in 1936 (Arahal et al. 1999 ). In fact, Arahal et al. (1999) identified as S. marismortui three strains with 16S rDNA sequences differing by 0.01%, suggesting that isolate 2-9-3 might also be classified as S. marismortui.
Several ideas were put forward, perhaps Salibacillus marismortui is ancient? That seems to have been countered, maybe evolution rates are slower? Unfortunately if the rates were that slow then that means life was on earth 15Billion years ago....
Because the substitutions between 2-9-3 and S. marismortui are all synonymous, they can be used to reflect the mutation rate. If three synonymous substitutions out of the 1,023 total nucleotides examined (1/619 from recA and 2/404 from splB), thus 0.2% divergence, are representative of the mutation rate since the divergence of 2-9-3 and S. marismortui 250 MYA, then the 121 synonymous substitutions (12% divergence) between B. subtilis and B. cereus would place their last common ancestor at 15 BYA, much longer than the age of the earth.
So, the central paradox opens up plenty of questions for the biologists here and I'll paraphrase it. We have geological data which interprets these bacteria as being ancient. We have an equal amount of molecular evidence which says they are modern. This incongruence is precisely the kind of falsification test that evolutionists have been harping on about for Lord only knows how long. So, surely this classes as strong falsification for at least one of the methods used in dating the bacteria? Has this data be reconciled, or is it still one of the thorns that remains fixed in the side of evolutionary dogma?
After some consideration I think Dates and Dating might be best.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Mammuthus, posted 03-16-2006 6:31 AM Modulous has replied
 Message 4 by ikabod, posted 03-16-2006 6:41 AM Modulous has replied
 Message 9 by gadsen76, posted 04-25-2006 1:38 AM Modulous has replied
 Message 13 by randman, posted 08-14-2006 9:14 PM Modulous has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 5 of 77 (295852)
03-16-2006 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Mammuthus
03-16-2006 6:31 AM


bizarre science
From the article I linked to it seems implied that the tests were independently verified (eg when they talk about all the sterilization controls), but close reading does not support it. I am quite content to reject their results assuming that the critique is accurate. I'll check to see if there has been any response to criticisms.
The other information, such as the stability of DNA and the failure of previous attempts, lends to my incredulity about this work. Why was the conclusion that perhaps the sterilization techniques in use failed at some time or that the crystal was contaminated at some earlier time not put forward even as a possibility?
Your characterization of this as cold fusion for biology would seem to be well founded.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Mammuthus, posted 03-16-2006 6:31 AM Mammuthus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Mammuthus, posted 03-16-2006 8:17 AM Modulous has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 7 of 77 (295867)
03-16-2006 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by ikabod
03-16-2006 6:41 AM


No data is bad data?
Science does not work on headlines , it works on confirmation , querring , testing and retesting .
In all fairness, I wasn't using the BBC article as the prime source for the information, but instead the paper published in 'Molecular Biology and Evolution' in 2002.
to try to use this data to argue for or verses any other scientific idea is NOT scientific
It depends
It is quite useful to use this data to show flaws in the methods of the hunt for ancient DNA. It could be used as verification of molecular dating methods - it could be said to have succesfully predicted that the bacteria is not ancient. A bit of a stretch I suppose, but I don't think it's in the spirit of science to regard rejected data as totally useless
Oh - and by the way - welcome to EvC!

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 Message 4 by ikabod, posted 03-16-2006 6:41 AM ikabod has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 8 of 77 (295871)
03-16-2006 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Mammuthus
03-16-2006 8:17 AM


Re: bizarre science
I would not be so harsh...
A quick correction to my earlier post, I said:
quote:
Why was the conclusion that perhaps the sterilization techniques in use failed at some time or that the crystal was contaminated at some earlier time not put forward even as a possibility?
The conclusion was paid lip service as a 'historical criticism', implying that the criticism had been overturned. A little bold perhaps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Mammuthus, posted 03-16-2006 8:17 AM Mammuthus has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 10 of 77 (306411)
04-25-2006 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by gadsen76
04-25-2006 1:38 AM


Something found in an ancient rock that managed to evolve through the ages and was still alive some 250 million years later. Evolution is a powerful thing. Just a thought
I think the idea was that the bacteria was dormant, and not reproducing for 250million years, springing back to life in the right conditions. It also seems that might be a load of crap. Welcome to EvC!

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 Message 9 by gadsen76, posted 04-25-2006 1:38 AM gadsen76 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by complexPHILOSOPHY, posted 04-28-2006 7:14 PM Modulous has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 12 of 77 (307673)
04-29-2006 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by complexPHILOSOPHY
04-28-2006 7:14 PM


As the others have said, until it's replicated and verified by their peers, it remains to be seen.
Indeed, hence my comment that, 'It also seems that might be a load of crap'.

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