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Author Topic:   The Existence of Jesus Christ
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 271 of 378 (247482)
09-29-2005 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Chiroptera
09-14-2005 5:00 PM


It's scientific.
Way back when in journalism school, we were treated to data showing the time it took to read text in different formats, as well as how far people would read before abandoning a particularly formatted text and how readily the content was understood and retained.
Unsurprisingly, TEXT TYPED LIKE THIS TOOK FAR LONGER TO READ, AND MOST PEOPLE LEFT OFF AFTER LITTLE MORE THAN A LINE OR TWO.
Text formatted within our normal conventions was more quickly read, comprehended, and retained.
Text Formatted in This Manner was somewhere in the middle in terms of reading speed, comprehension, and reader persistence; perceived as more formal than the second sample above, it was thus seen as appropriate for titles and headlines.
We were taught that all upper case should be reserved for headlines announcing wars and assassinations.
Besides, it's ugly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Chiroptera, posted 09-14-2005 5:00 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Rawel Singh
Inactive Member


Message 272 of 378 (295555)
03-15-2006 1:01 PM


Jesus' miracles
I am a man who likes to respect all scriptures but many doubts have been created as I read the New Testament part of the Bible. They basically pertain to the claims that have been made by the apostles. What I am going to say should not be taken as criticism but an effort to clarify my mind.
One of the things that stikes on reading the New Testament is the zeal with which Jesus heals people and revives the dead. As per Christian belief he is the Messiah forecast in the Old Testament. When he is asked, by men sent by John, if he is the Messiah, he replies "Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached" (Luke 7:22). Is that all for which Jesus assumed the ministry? What any student of spirituality would like to see in a preceptor is how he takes the people towards God. I am not saying there is anything wrong with his teachings. I hold the belief that any person who flaunts supernatural powers drifts away from God. I request clarification on two things recorded in the Bible. Firstly is this statement by Jesus "Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me" (Luke 8:46). Secondly when some people mocked at him, after his crucifixion he lamented "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me"Matthew 27:46 & Mark 15:34). If the gospel is the word of God, jesus had been forsaken by God. Is this true?
I request that comments may please br given objectively. Let them neither be based on any obscure ideas nor undue criticism. Hoping for a meaningful dialogue.

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by John 10:10, posted 03-15-2006 1:41 PM Rawel Singh has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 273 of 378 (295573)
03-15-2006 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Rawel Singh
03-15-2006 1:01 PM


Re: Jesus' miracles
Rawel Singh writes,
Firstly is this statement by Jesus "Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me" (Luke 8:46).
Jesus declared He could only do the things He saw His heavenly Father doing (John 5:19). When this woman reached out in faith and touched Jesus believing that she would be healed, God the Father worked through Jesus and healed her without Jesus' direct action.
Secondly when some people mocked at him, after his crucifixion he lamented "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me" Matthew 27:46 & Mark 15:34). If the gospel is the word of God, Jesus had been forsaken by God. Is this true?
These words were spoken by Jesus as He hung on the cross. In order for Jesus to take away the sin of the world (John 1:29), the sin of the world had to laid upon Him. When the sin of the world was laid upon Him, God the father forsook Jesus, thus the cry of Jesus, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?" This was the only time in all of eternity that Jesus was separated from God the Father.
Blessings
This message has been edited by John 10:10, 03-15-2006 01:43 PM

The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-15-2006 1:01 PM Rawel Singh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-15-2006 10:20 PM John 10:10 has replied

Rawel Singh
Inactive Member


Message 274 of 378 (295757)
03-15-2006 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by John 10:10
03-15-2006 1:41 PM


Re: Jesus' miracles
Thanks. The meaning of Jesus' statement saying that virtue had gone out of him has not been given. It appears that in his later days Jesus had started getting impatient as is clear from Matthew 17:17. Also he had started making rather harsh statements like "A wicked and adulterous generation---"Matthew 16:4. He also cursed the fig tree as it did not have fruit Matthew21:19. Are these indications of his having a feeling of insecurity?Matthew 26:38 also indicates the same state when he says "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful". It is true that Jesus had said more than once that he drew power from God, but there are many statements where he indicated he was the Lord, like the Alpha and omega statement in Revelation. It is suggested that the issue of loss of virtue may be dealt with before the other issue of Jesus being forsaken by God is taken up which may be later.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by John 10:10, posted 03-15-2006 1:41 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by John 10:10, posted 03-16-2006 8:29 AM Rawel Singh has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 275 of 378 (295865)
03-16-2006 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by Rawel Singh
03-15-2006 10:20 PM


Re: Jesus' miracles
Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God the Father and given Lord position in the Godhead only after He completed His mission on the cross (Acts 2:32-36).
To suggest some of the things you are suggesting is to misunderstand the words of Jesus.
The words Jesus spoke "are spirit and are life" (John 6:63).
Many disciples of Jesus no longer walked with Jesus after He said these words.
Many today cannot walk with Jesus as Lord.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-15-2006 10:20 PM Rawel Singh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-16-2006 10:49 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 283 by Phat, posted 03-17-2006 10:19 AM John 10:10 has not replied

Rawel Singh
Inactive Member


Message 276 of 378 (295916)
03-16-2006 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by John 10:10
03-16-2006 8:29 AM


Re: Jesus' miracles
Are we not skirtikg the real issues? You have said
Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God the Father and given Lord position in the Godhead only after He completed His mission on the cross (Acts 2:32-36).
Jesus had called himself the Lord even earlier. kindly refer to Matthew 21:3. Even his 12 disciples had been given the powers normally believed to be vested in God. I wish to clarify that I have only quoted the Bible to seek the background to the statements. There is a pattern in the various quotations given by me and not just one statement that it may be thought to be out of context. I am glad to be in dialogue with a learned Christian and hope that as we proceed the misgivings, normally expressed by people, about the accuracy of the scripture, will be removed. It may please be taken in that spirit. Let us therefore take the issues head on. Incidently what does "Many disiples of Jesus no loger walked with Jesus after he said these words" mean?
God Bless
This message has been edited by Rawel Singh, 03-16-2006 10:52 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by John 10:10, posted 03-16-2006 8:29 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by John 10:10, posted 03-16-2006 11:58 AM Rawel Singh has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 277 of 378 (295940)
03-16-2006 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Rawel Singh
03-16-2006 10:49 AM


Re: Jesus' miracles
First of all, it's not me but the Scriptures that declare:
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified." (Acts 2:36).
Since Jesus was already Christ before this event, the position of Lord was not His but was God the Father's position. God the Father then gave this honor position to Jesus as a result of completing His atoning mission to earth.
True salvation is in acknowledging Jesus as Lord, and in confessing Him as Lord of your life.
After Jesus spoke the words of John 6 to a great number of His disciples, many could no longer accept what commitment to these words meant, and no longer walked with Him.
Many today will accept Jesus as a great man, but will not accept Jesus as Lord God.
Blessings

The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-16-2006 10:49 AM Rawel Singh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-16-2006 6:12 PM John 10:10 has replied

Rawel Singh
Inactive Member


Message 278 of 378 (296053)
03-16-2006 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by John 10:10
03-16-2006 11:58 AM


Re: Jesus' miracles
The real issues have still not been addressed. What has been givn now are dogmas which have really been responsible for creating the doubts. It may please be appreciated that Acts and letters are efforts to convince people about the new religion by showing how big Jesus was. These were not ordained by God. It appears that efforts like this have brought in dogmas. As I look at it Jesus was the son of God as we all are. However he had a special position because he was anointed by God. He has liked himself as the son of man. The agerrations in the gospels seem to have come in due to overenthusism of those who wrote them after Jesus had left the earth. It appears to me that Jesus would never have approved of these. His refrain throughout was that he had come to fulfill the scriptures. The Gospels themselves still have statements that indicate his humility. For example Jesus refused to perform miacle when he was tempted to do so, Watthew 4:3-4, or asked people not to say he was good. Even when he performed miracles ,he asked people no to tell others. It appears we are going off the original questions . Let us please address them.
God Bless

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by John 10:10, posted 03-16-2006 11:58 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by John 10:10, posted 03-17-2006 8:14 AM Rawel Singh has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 279 of 378 (296149)
03-17-2006 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by Rawel Singh
03-16-2006 6:12 PM


Re: Jesus' miracles
Rawel Singh writes,
"The real issues have still not been addressed."
Since you have stated your position regarding the truthfulness of Bible Scriptures, the only thing I will address are these words of Jesus in John 5:39-40,
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have eternal life."
I do not believe most people who come to this web site believe there is such a thing as "eternal life." Most certainly do not believe nor have they received the eternal life that Jesus gives to those who come to Him.
Blessings

The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-16-2006 6:12 PM Rawel Singh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by jar, posted 03-17-2006 8:37 AM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 282 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-17-2006 10:16 AM John 10:10 has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 280 of 378 (296153)
03-17-2006 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by John 10:10
03-17-2006 8:14 AM


search Scripture?
Since you have stated your position regarding the truthfulness of Bible Scriptures, the only thing I will address are these words of Jesus in John 5:39-40,
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have eternal life."
You do realize that Jesus was not talking about the Bible.
I do not believe most people who come to this web site believe there is such a thing as "eternal life." Most certainly do not believe nor have they received the eternal life that Jesus gives to those who come to Him.
That's nice. You are certainly welcome to any beliefs you hold. But what does it have to do with anything being discussed?
The subject is whether or not there is evidence for a historical Jesus. It has nothing to do with theology, or divinity, but just "What evidence is there that Jesus really existed?"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by John 10:10, posted 03-17-2006 8:14 AM John 10:10 has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 281 of 378 (296192)
03-17-2006 10:09 AM


The evidence of Tacitus.
One piece of evidence that is continually being brought up is the commments of tacitus in ANNALS.
One critizim I heard that I can not confirm is that hte first time this passage was mentioned was in the 14th Century. That would indicate it was a later interpolition.
Is that true, or was this mentioned by some Christian appologist before, and someone is making an invalid claim (which I see all too often, on all sides of the arguement)

Rawel Singh
Inactive Member


Message 282 of 378 (296194)
03-17-2006 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by John 10:10
03-17-2006 8:14 AM


Re: Jesus' miracles
I am sorry if I have given the impression that I was giving my position regarding the truthfulness of the Bible. I am only seeking clarifications on doubts. Regarding reading the scriptures as in John 5:39-40, and following up with John 5:41-42, I feel John 1 gives me a clearer idea whereby the Word or scripture is God; in other words the scripture must covey what God says and not exalt Jesus to equate with God and at the same time say he draws power from God. Matthew 4:10 confirms this thus "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve".
As far as eternal life is concerned, I believe in the eternity of the soul, which alone is real life as per Genesis 2:7. The body made of dust was not life, the soul was breathed in by God. The soul does not die, because it came from God's breath; the body without soul is just dust. Here again a dogma is mentioned that both body and soul are eternal. In this regard disappearnce of Jesus' body from the tomb is mentioned. If one goes over this , which is quoted as the basis of Christianity, wide variations are seenin the account given by the four gospels, which gives the impression, and indeed which many people have stated, that the gospels are not eye witness accounts but rather hearsay. PLease do not dismiss it but explain the differences. The most glaring doubt is on fundamentals. It is stated that Jesus was seen walking on the earth and met may people before he met his disciples. This is at complete variance with Matthew 22:30, wherein it is said by Jesus that on resurrection they are angels of God in heaven. Angels do not walk on the earth; if ever they come to the earth it is for a psrticular task. They do it and go back. Many such examples exist in the Bible.
If you still feel that I am only picking holes, kidly do not reply to this, but I hope you will confront the issues dirctly as given initially and as we have proceeded, particularly the humility displayed by Jesus.
God Bless
This message has been edited by Rawel Singh, 03-17-2006 10:24 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by John 10:10, posted 03-17-2006 8:14 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by John 10:10, posted 03-17-2006 2:15 PM Rawel Singh has not replied
 Message 289 by John 10:10, posted 03-17-2006 2:16 PM Rawel Singh has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 283 of 378 (296196)
03-17-2006 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by John 10:10
03-16-2006 8:29 AM


Re: Jesus' miracles
John 10:10 writes:
Many today cannot walk with Jesus as Lord.
What does it mean to walk with Him?
What facts do we need to convince us? Any?
If no facts were found, would we conclude that Jesus is just another dead guy?
What I am trying to say is that people do not need to search the scriptures any more than they need to dig up bones or "shrouds" in order to have the faith necessary for everyday life. They can find the spark within them subjectively without needing objective proof.
If the spark becomes a fire, people will see the evidence lived through the life of the individual. No archeological/historical/literary evidence will be needed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by John 10:10, posted 03-16-2006 8:29 AM John 10:10 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-17-2006 10:45 AM Phat has replied
 Message 286 by ramoss, posted 03-17-2006 10:59 AM Phat has not replied

Rawel Singh
Inactive Member


Message 284 of 378 (296200)
03-17-2006 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Phat
03-17-2006 10:19 AM


Re: Jesus' miracles
Dear Phat,
The question has not been answered but just dismissed. Kindly appreciate that the Western world of which Christianity is the major part are an educated lot. Such questions are genuine and should not be summarily dismissed. Let me clarify that I am not Christian, but believe that if everybbody follows his or her religion, the world will be better place. I did my bit in this ragard for all religions including Christianity. In appreciation of this the Church of North India where I was then, published a piece recogniizing my services in their making more friends. We had a small chapel where the Bishop came and conducted a service. This was in 1973/74.
Let me make an attempt to understand what walking with Jesus means. It probably means that many people could not subject themselves to the discipline that Jesus demanded in life and dissocieted from him. This is not unusual. It happens every where when people give more importance to the benedictions of God than to the One who has bestowed those.
I am unable to agree that we do not have to dig into the scriptures. Pray, they are the only authentic source of divine knowledge. We all know that some times we do things which we realize later were wrong. If we read the scripyures regularly we are kept reminded of what is right and what is not. Let us value this tresure.
God Bless

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Phat, posted 03-17-2006 10:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Phat, posted 03-17-2006 10:50 AM Rawel Singh has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 285 of 378 (296204)
03-17-2006 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by Rawel Singh
03-17-2006 10:45 AM


Is the source found in the book only?
Rawel Singh writes:
Let me make an attempt to understand what walking with Jesus means. It probably means that many people could not subject themselves to the discipline that Jesus demanded in life and dissocieted from him.
To me, this is like taking a class and then dropping it when it becomes too demanding. why not just do the best we can?
RS writes:
I am unable to agree that we do not have to dig into the scriptures. Pray, they are the only authentic source of divine knowledge. We all know that some times we do things which we realize later were wrong. If we read the scriptures regularly we are kept reminded of what is right and what is not. Let us value this treasure.
What I mean't was that people will not find answers merely by reading the scriptures if they do not act upon the wisdom.
Besides...there was a time when there were no Bibles...did people have to run find a scroll or a tablet before God spoke to them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-17-2006 10:45 AM Rawel Singh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Rawel Singh, posted 03-17-2006 11:31 AM Phat has not replied

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