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Author Topic:   Scientific Fact versus Interpretation
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1016 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 75 of 144 (295786)
03-15-2006 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Ratel
03-15-2006 10:58 PM


Re: Here's an issue both sides can interpret
So here's my question for the conventional geologists- how was each successive layer, with all the intricate footprint patterns and ripples, preserved when the next layer was lain over it? Wouldn't it have to harden before the next layer of sand was deposited or be wiped out? Is this sort of phenomenon observed anywhere in the world today?
Think about how easily sand can be made into sand castles by just adding a little water. Desert environments appear to be dry, but can have quite a bit of moisture in the early morning air. And obviously, sand and silt in the marine environment is invariably moist, so suddenly a windstorm blows sediment into a shallow pond/creek/calm ocean/lagoon with ripples on the bottom and soon the ripples are covered in a cm thick layer of silt. And viola! Preserved ripples.
Same basic processes for fossil track preservation.
This is just one of several preservation processes, however.

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 Message 74 by Ratel, posted 03-15-2006 10:58 PM Ratel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Ratel, posted 03-15-2006 11:48 PM roxrkool has replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1016 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 79 of 144 (295805)
03-16-2006 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Ratel
03-15-2006 11:48 PM


Re: Here's an issue both sides can interpret
I've only posited one possible way to preserve tracks or ripples. I think we discussed this once before in another thread and there were several processes which seemed plausible. I think clay, silt, and cement components were mentioned as 'setting' agents. The new layer does not have to be a different size or type of sediment. I think all you really need is for the tracks, ripples, mudcracks, raindrops, etc. to form in sediment that can retain an impression long enough to survive in any particular environment.
Since we're on the topic of interpretation, is it at all possible what the geologists are calling ancient beaches may have been something-else, considering that there are footprints and ripples and so forth? Is there any conceivable scenario where a deluge (global or local) could have washed in these layers from somewhere else?
Are you referring to a specific location or is this a general question?
Thing is, the way geologists interpret the stratigraphic record is to compare what we see in the rocks to what we see today. Perfect analogues are not always necessary or possible, but all it really takes is making some pretty simple observations of the modern landscape and see if we can see the same or similar things in the rock record. Or vice versa. And we do.

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1016 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 85 of 144 (295906)
03-16-2006 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Silent H
03-16-2006 5:57 AM


Re: fantasy scenario v theory based on lines of converging evidence
Thanks for that paper, holmes, it actually has applications to both my projects. Karlstrom has been doing similar work since the 70s and I wouldn't be surprised if he alone had more than 50 published papers on similar topics.

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 Message 86 by Silent H, posted 03-16-2006 12:50 PM roxrkool has replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1016 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 87 of 144 (295966)
03-16-2006 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Silent H
03-16-2006 12:50 PM


Re: fantasy scenario v theory based on lines of converging evidence
I guess I'm just delusional like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Silent H, posted 03-16-2006 12:50 PM Silent H has replied

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 Message 93 by Silent H, posted 03-17-2006 5:57 AM roxrkool has replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1016 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 95 of 144 (296182)
03-17-2006 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Silent H
03-17-2006 5:57 AM


Re: fantasy scenario v theory based on lines of converging evidence
My background is economic geology, specifically mineral exploration/mining work in the precious metals industry. That's where I started out and I later went back for a Master's when the price of gold took a dive in the late 90s (when many geos were laid off).
The paper you linked discusses regional structural trends/shear zones in Colorado that are probably related to arc accretion in the Proterozoic.
One of my projects is an intrusion located in southern Wyoming about 15 km south of the Archean-Proterzoic suture. In the past, I was unaware of the presence of those two thrusts located up north as they are not present on any of the maps I have.
The second project is located in the vicinity of the Black Canyon. I've been mapping pediment surfaces (and structure when I can find it) out there in an attempt to reconstruct the geomorphic and erosional history of the area, basically paleolandscape reconstruction. The pediment surfaces, which are comprised of unconsolidated gravels up to boulder size, occur at different elevations similar to river terraces, and probably represent different pulses of stream formation/deposition at the end of at least two glacial periods.
The pediment project is only one portion of a larger project involving studying rocks deposited in the Western Interior Seaway. We recently recovered 500+ feet of core drilled into Cretaceous rocks (located near the Black Canyon) that were deposited in the seaway and I am logging that right now.
The paper you linked specifically discusses structure in the Black Canyon area. Just based on a quick perusal of the paper, the authors appear to have re-interpreted some of the major structures, so it will be interesting to see why.
This message has been edited by roxrkool, 03-17-2006 09:40 AM

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1016 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 105 of 144 (296460)
03-18-2006 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
03-18-2006 9:08 AM


The whole point is that what is conjecture is nevertheless frequently presented to nonscientists as if it were fact. This is actually more often encountered in presentations of the scenarios of supposed ancient life that develop from the ToE.
Faith, that is the language of science. Geologists speak and write about geology in the present tense. If the geologic community overwhelmingly accepts a theory based on the weight of the evidence, then we speak as if it is fact. If less data exists to support a theory, then we add words like "indicates," "suggests," etc.
Additionally, calling scientific theories 'conjecture' is misleading if not patently false. Because you personally refuse to acknowledge the data, is not a good enough reason to impugn the intellectual capabilities, professional integrity, and motives of all scientists who don't follow your particular brand of logic.

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