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Author Topic:   What evidence absolutely rules out a Creator
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 286 of 300 (296431)
03-18-2006 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by robinrohan
03-14-2006 10:53 PM


Re: Logic?
According to several religions, there is such a thing as "sin," which cannot be committed unless we are aware of right and wrong. If we did not know in basic terms what is right and what is wrong, the concept of sin would be meaningless. We would have the moral status of animals. Animals cannot commit sin, just as they cannot commit a crime.
According to this tradition, then, we know what's right and wrong, and we can examine events and make judgements. There may be complicated situations which are puzzling, but we know the basics.
Theologically speaking then, before the Fall, all creatures, including humans did not know the difference between right and wrong. Adam/Eve did not kill any other creatures - they were the first to have an awareness of what not to do (disobey God) yet they did it anyway.
Evolution does not rule out a Fall at all. Everything up to the Fall could have evolved as we know it with no sin (you said it yourself, there is no sin without a concept of right/wrong). Humanity was given the concept of right/wrong (don't disobey God). They disobeyed God, and fell into sin.
It's probably the clearest argument you've put forward, but it fails to formal logic because it excludes other possibilities.
God need not have chosen the set-up of life as it is under evolution. He might have made all animals herbivores; he might have tossed manna from heaven on a daily basis. He did not do this. Instead he chose a killing field.
The nature of reality raises some questions theologically. Why was there a pre-fall killing field? Unfortunately, since we don't know the reasons why God decided to create the universe/life/humans in the way he did, we can't assess using our good/evil knowledge whether or not those reasons were good or evil.

This message is a reply to:
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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 287 of 300 (296435)
03-18-2006 7:22 AM


Approaching EOT
Only 13 posts left until End of Thread.
It is a good time to start winding down and presenting summaries or conclusions.
Thanks for debating, carry on.
Magic Wand

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 288 of 300 (296474)
03-18-2006 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by AdminPD
03-18-2006 7:22 AM


Already said my piece.
It would appear that I have already made my final statement on this thread. Even though robinrohan responded to it, I will let it stand as my last say.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 289 of 300 (296478)
03-18-2006 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by AdminPD
03-18-2006 7:22 AM


summary
The question of "What evidence absolutely rules out a Creator" or for that matter what evidence would rule in a creator is simply mental masturbation.
If GOD exists, She exists regardless of any evidence that shows She does not exist.
If GOD does not exist, It does not exist regardless of any exidence that It does exist.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 290 of 300 (296482)
03-18-2006 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by jar
03-18-2006 12:41 PM


Re: summary
The question of "What evidence absolutely rules out a Creator" or for that matter what evidence would rule in a creator is simply mental masturbation.
Since I find masturbation, mental or otherwise, rather delightful, I will continue.
My own view, which as Paulk says, is "close-minded," and about which,, as Jar says, "nobody cares," can be summed up as follows:
There is a certain traditional morality that is, I think, widespread. According to this morality, we must not do harm to others unjustifiably. There are all sorts of disagreements about what is justifiable harm and what is not, but there is not much disagreement with the view that IF the harm we do to another is in fact unjustifiable, then it is evil.
The question is whether the process of evolution can be justified morally. The God we are speaking of is supposed to be all-good, all-powerful, and all-knowing. When we look at how life has evolved, we note that in order for some creatures to survive, they have to kill and eat other creatures. This does not seem very nice. One might say that what happens to animals doesn't matter, but pain is pain no matter what sort of creature feels it. On the assumption that some animals do feel physical pain just as we do, then harm has been done to such animals as have been killed by others. These animals have been tortured and murdered. But the animals who have performed these acts are not reponsible for their actions because they do not, we assume, understand our traditional morality. The responsibility for their actions rest not with the animals but with He who made them.
Is such harm that animals have done to other animals justifiable? It could only be justified if evolution was the only possible way that life could have developed. If so, we could build the case that life is worth that pain.
But the only action that this God of Western tradition cannot perform (excepting immoral actions)is an action that is self-contradictory. God cannot make a round square. Since this is the case, special creation would have to be a round square, something impossible for God to perform. But if this God can create the universe, it must be possible for Him to create things within this universe--things like lions and tigers and bears.
So evolution is morally unjustifiable. But this God can do nothing which is morally unjustifiable, being all-good. So he doesn't exist.
ed: typos.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 03-18-2006 12:40 PM
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 03-18-2006 12:43 PM

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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 291 of 300 (296484)
03-18-2006 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by robinrohan
03-18-2006 1:37 PM


Re: summary
robinrohan writes:
When we look at how life has evolved, we note that in order for some creatures to survive, they have to kill and eat other creatures. This does not seem very nice. One might say that what happens to animals doesn't matter, but pain is pain no matter what sort of creature feels it. On the assumption that some animals do feel physical pain just as we do, then harm has been done to such animals as have been killed by others. These animals have been tortured and murdered. But the animals who have performed these acts are not reponsible for their actions because they do not, we assume, understand our traditional morality. The responsibility for their actions rest not with the animals but with He who made them.
That is your indictment of God.
Evolution does not appear to be involved in this indictment. It is not evolution that persuades you to rule out a creator. Rather, it is your observation as to the way the world is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by robinrohan, posted 03-18-2006 1:37 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by robinrohan, posted 03-18-2006 1:57 PM nwr has replied
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 292 of 300 (296485)
03-18-2006 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by nwr
03-18-2006 1:54 PM


Re: summary
Evolution does not appear to be involved in this indictment. It is not evolution that persuades you to rule out a creator. Rather, it is your observation as to the way the world is.
Evolution rules out the Fall. It also rules out the necessity of special creation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 293 of 300 (296487)
03-18-2006 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by nwr
03-18-2006 1:54 PM


Re: summary
Besides, nwr, Robin hasn't ruled out a creator, he's just ruled out his particular version of one.
He anthropomorphizes nature and then whines that any all-good god wouldn't not have done things that way. If a true atheist were to do the same things that he is doing, his current fan base would lambast them non-stop.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 294 of 300 (296488)
03-18-2006 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by robinrohan
03-18-2006 1:57 PM


The Fall?
Evolution rules out the Fall. It also rules out the necessity of special creation.
Hell, reading the Bible rules them out too. LOL

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 295 of 300 (296492)
03-18-2006 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by jar
03-18-2006 2:06 PM


so what evidence absolutely rules out a Creator?
well...if the Bible is ruled out, we can't prove that there IS a Creator...but I don't see the logic of anything that proves that there is NOT one, either. In my prayers, I am either talking to Him or talking to myself!
Note to self: Quit pretending to grovel and get busy living the life you feel you were meant to live!

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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 296 of 300 (296493)
03-18-2006 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Phat
03-18-2006 2:12 PM


Re: so what evidence absolutely rules out a Creator?
quote:
In my prayers, I am either talking to Him or talking to myself!
And in the end, what matters is whether it works for you.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 297 of 300 (296494)
03-18-2006 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Phat
03-18-2006 2:12 PM


Re: so what evidence absolutely rules out a Creator?
What does that have to do with what I posted? I thought I was specifically ruling the Bible in in my reply?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 298 of 300 (296496)
03-18-2006 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by robinrohan
03-18-2006 1:57 PM


Re: summary
robinrohan writes:
Evolution rules out the Fall. It also rules out the necessity of special creation.
There is no biblical basis for the Fall. In any case, the fall would only give God an excuse. Your indictment would still stand.
Evolution does not rule out that God created everything, including evolution as a system to generate biological diversity.
This message has been edited by nwr, 03-18-2006 01:37 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by robinrohan, posted 03-18-2006 1:57 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 299 of 300 (296502)
03-18-2006 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by nwr
03-18-2006 2:36 PM


Re: summary
Well, what robinrohan's argument seems to rule out is God being good as judged by robinrohan.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 300 of 300 (296504)
03-18-2006 3:16 PM


Witching hour Folk
Time to put this puppy to bed.

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