What is the soul?

In Hebrew (as in English) the soul and the spirit are represented by different words (I believe ruach and nefesh, respectively). Does this mean that the soul and the spirit are different things? I tend to think they are, possibly that the soul is what you get when you combine the spirit with the body.The Skeptics Dictionary treats soul and spirit as being the same thing, as do some (many? most?) Christians, like Billy Graham. Obviously, I don't agree with that interpretation.I do think there is an immaterial something or other that accounts for my ability to know that I exist. I don't know if I would identify it with either the soul or the spirit.Unless there is some compelling and cogent reason to do otherwise, this discussion should go into the Bible Study forum.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

I have not pondered the meaning of the soul recently.I can tell you what I was taught in Fundie School.(Where they got it, I don't know.)We live in a body. The body is our flesh, bones, nerves, and blood.We have a soul. The soul is life. It is our Mind,(What I am) our Will, (What I seek) and our Emotions (What I feel.)We are a Spirit. There are basically two flows of spirit.
1) The Holy Spirit
2) All othersAnd we are ourselves NOT the Holy (or other) spirits...we are in communion with them..Of course, this is from a monotheist perspective. This message has been edited by Phat, 03-16-2006 06:48 AM

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Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

It is very clear in the New Testament that the human soul and the human spirit are not identical compenants of the human make up.There are verses there however, which arguably might seem to contradict this even in the New Testament.Because I don't believe that man's make up changes from one period of time to another, therefore what is soul and spirit in man in the New Testament must also have been soul and spirit previously.Having said that it is not reasonable for me to think that the human make up changed from Old Testament times to New Testament times, the revelation of the difference between human soul and human spirit is not as pointed in the Old Testament as in the New. But there are some clear verses that I believe show that there is a difference.God breathed into man the breath of life and man became a living soul. Like you I take this to mean that God imparted something into man's body and the contact between it and man's body brought about the existence of a third matter - man's soul. The union between the breath of God and the frame of man's body caused man to become a living soul.Now all the verses in the Old Testament are not this clear. So I think that the revelation of the distinction of soul and spirit in man runs concurrently with the gradual and progressive revelation of the nature of God's full salvation. As the nature of God's salvation is progressively revealed more and more as the Bible progresses so also the tripartite nature of man is made more and more clear. The Christian liturature that states that soul and spirit are identical I take to be in error. This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-16-2006 08:19 AM

In Judaism, the term 'Spirit' is linked directly to 'the breath of life'.In more modern Judaism at least, the spirit is linked with life, and the soul is some mysterious component that goes to the 'world to come'. (This is the orthodox concept at least).

I would relate it back to Adam and Eve.Spirit is the "breath of life" in man - and in all living creatures. It's what allows us to enjoy living, to enjoy doing things just because we can. Children playing are showing their spirit. Birds singing or flying are showing their spirit.(Most "spiritual" people don't show much spirit.)The soul has to do with the knowledge of good and evil. The "soul" is what we use to decide between good and evil in a specific situation.The soul must be used to be of any value. The sheep will be divided from the goats based on the value of their souls - and the value is based on how well-used their souls are.

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Decline toStateFrom the Blueletterbible site we have these definitions for spirit And these from the same site for soul It would seem that the definitions is/are pliable one/s meant to apply to many different concepts and quite open to interpretation by those who wish to apply it.
I think it is not a hard and fast rule but range of applications made by people who wanted to apply it to the thing they were assesing rather than apply a defined concept to something it was not intended for to begin with.Spirit is also used as soul is to describe a continuence after death in Ecc 3:21 So I suppose you can choose either one to apply to whatever strikes your fancy in the moment.

Before they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then, did Adam and Eve not have souls?Is the soul the same thing as conscience?

From the Spiritualism in Christianity Today site: I'm not sure that many Christians would describe the soul as a "spirit ball," whether in the chest or anywhere else. However, the point that Christians seem to be willing to equate the spirit and the soul seems to be valid, as does the point that the Bible says that man became—rather than received—a soul.I suppose there may be other passages in the Bible that indicate the writer considered the soul and spirit to be the same, thus contradicting the verses quoted above, but any discussion of those would probably have to take place in a Biblical errancy or inerrancy thread.

Well, I'm not thinking of Adam and Eve as historical personages, so "before" they ate of the tree is really undefined. Primarily, the story is about why we know good from evil (and how that makes us responsible) - not "when" it happened.But i think the soul does develop within us. As somebody mentioned in another thread far far away, we aren't born knowing good from evil. We have to learn the distinction - and in some cases the distinction can be pretty thin. So it's a lifelong process. Kinda sorta. But the conscience usually just gives us a poke after we've done something wrong. The soul can be preemptive. ("I know my conscience is going to bother me for this.")The soul is also about empathy - the ability to "predict" the effect that our actions will have.

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God's salvation covers all three parts of man's being from the innermost to the outermost. Like three concentric circles His salvation starts from the kernel of man's being and works outward until the total man is saved:[/b]"And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:23)[/b]Here "... your spirit and soul and body ..." indicates three components of the human makeup. The spirit being the innermost and the body being the outermost. Inbetween these two is the human soul.The conjuction "and" shows the distinction between the three parts. The NIV is an incorrect translation when it renders this verse "spirit, soul and body", leaving out "and" between "spirit and soul".It is in the nucleus of man, in the kernel of his being that the new birth of regeneration takes place:"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6)The first "Spirit" with a capital "S" is the third Person of the Triune God, the Holy Spirit. The second "spirit" with a small "s" is the human spirit of man. The innermost part of man, in regeneration, is awakened out of its comatose state inflicted upon it because of man's fall into sin. It is enlivened by the divine Spirit of God and reborn when the man receives Jesus Christ. "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit".Being born in the human spirit of the Holy Spirit is also having the Holy Spirit joined to the human spirit in a blended way. Man is united with God organically deep within. "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17). The Spirit who is God and the human spirit of the believer become one mingled, one united, one blended, and one interwoven spirit - "one spirit". Joined to the Lord means indwelt with by the Lord. Joined to the Lord means made one blended spirit with the Spirit of God.Since the Holy Spirit is just Christ in His spiritual form, for the Spirit to be joined to the human spirit is for the Lord Jesus to be with the human spirit. Therefore Paul writes:"The Lord be with your spirit" (2 Tim. 4:22)Jesus Christ in His pneumatic form as the Spirit of Christ, can dwell with and in the human spirit of the believer in Christ. Then the Lord is with that person's spirit. Deep within Christ the Lord lives in the person in a blended and mingled way.His plan is then to spread His life from within the innermost of man into the outer regions - man's soul and eventually man's body."And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess 5:23)This preserving means Christ filling and saturating the person with Himself, preserving the person in God's sanctification process for the second coming of Christ. Then the believer's whole being will be brought into eternal life and express Christ joined to her or him in glory and in expression.

Comment: the NIV is not necessarily "incorrect" here, so long as one understands that the comma is conjunctive and not indicating apposition. A couple of questions:

1. Is there any reason to believe that the first "Spirit" means "Holy Spirit" other than it fits in with one's understanding of the Trinity doctrine? It would have been much clearer if Jesus had said "Holy Spirit" if that was what was specifically meant.
2. Why isn't the soul mentioned here?

Does this mean that a human can eventually become part of the Trinity? (I'm sure there are some who would say yes, and that there are others who would reject the Trinity doctine for just that reason.)Well, perhaps we're now straying into topics for another discussion. It seems that Paul conceived of the soul as being something somewhere between the spirit and the body, but not identical to either. This would seem to be at variance with the beliefs of many professing Christians today.

DeclinetoState, I wonder why they didn't adopt a similiar rendering in Matthew 28:19 - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.." (NIV) This omission of "Holy" from "Spirit" is not surprising in John's gospel before the resurrection of Christ. John speaks only of "the Spirit" in one place where the Holy Spirit is most obviously intended:"He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water. But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believe into Him were about to receive; for [the] Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified." (John 7:28,29)Surely, the Holy Spirit is meant in this passage also. But I think it may be characteristic of John to speak of "the Spirit." Even in the main chapter on the Holy Spirit, chapter 14, John imploys "the Spirit of reality" or "the Comforter". I don't think he refers to "the Holy Spirit" until after the resurrection in John 20:22 - And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit"I would check this out to see if I am right though. The one exception I though occured in the speaking of John the Baptist turned out also to be a reference to "the Spirit".Now, how do we know that "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" means the human spirit is born of the Holy Spirit? Well, I think that is the best assumption. He should not mean that the human spirit is born of itself. And the Holy Spirit does not need to be born at all being eternal. And it is not likely that He meant that the Holy Spirit is born of the human spirit as in "that which is born of the spirit is [S]pirit."So the regenration of the human spirit of the Holy Spirit is the most logical understanding. A confirming verse would be [b]Romans 8:16 - "The Spirit Himself bears withness with our spirit that we are children of God."So I think the best understanding of these two verses is the the Holy Spirit which is God causes out human spirit to be born again. And from that point the Holy Spirit Himself bears witness along with our regenerated spirit that we, being born of God, are indeed children of God. It is interesting that nowhere does the Bible ever say that we are born again in our soul. The Bible mentions the salvation of the soul. But this is related to transformation. Birth is instantaneous. Transformation takes a long time. So I think what we have is man's full salvation in three stages. Two are instantaneous and one is gradual:1.) The human spirit is regenerated2.) The human soul is transformed3.) The human body is transfigured.Regeneration happens quickly. Transformation is gradual and may take a lifetime. Transfiguration happens in the twinkling of an eye, instantaneously as with being born again.Since chapter 3 is concerned mostly with birth it mentions the human spirit rather than the human soul. When Jesus mentions the human soul it is often in connection with losing ones soul that one may gain it. This means a life long practice of denying one's self that the soul may be sanctified and transformed into a Christ like, Christ reflecting soul. I would refer to the Godhead as being the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This Godhead I might refer to as the Trinity as an object of worship - omnipotent, onmiscient, omnipresent, a Creator of the universe. This Godhead, I do not believe man ever becomes. So I don't think I mean man being joined to God becomes the Godhead.But to become children of God is in a very real sense to become God, but not in His Godhead. It is to allow God to spread His life and nature into man - a kind of expansion or enlargement of God's "family" nature into man. It is in variance with the belief that man is a dichotomy and that spirit and soul are the same thing. Many good Christians hold such a view. I do not. Hebrews 4:12 shows that the word of God can divide the soul from the spirit within the hearer:"For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow, and able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart" (Hebrews 4:12)The phrase "the dividing of soul and spirit" indicates that the human spirit and the human soul may be very close but can be made distinct from one another by the sharp operation of the cutting word of God. The phrase "of the joints and marrow" may indicate that as the marrow is within the bones so also the spirit is deep within the soul.I strayed from the current talk a little bit. The human conscience is in the human spirit from what we can ascertain from the Bible. So the conscience dicerning right and wrong, I believe is a function in the deepest part of man - the human spirit.The human spirit was meant to be the highest and most powerful component of man keeping the soul underneath its influence. But in the fall of Adam, the human spirit became the weaker "organ" underneath the ascended human soul. And in some instances the flesh or the fallen body became more powerful in some people than even the soul of man.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-18-2006 02:51 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-18-2006 02:52 PM

I think the passage in Matthew requires the prepostion in order to translate accurately, and leaving out "and" in front of a prepositional phrase would sound awkward: "...in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."I will address the other issues in the post if I feel I have something to add or if I desire clarification.

Also consider the following passages:

Notice that there is a Spirit and a bride. A Spirit and a Body.

Jesus describes Himself as both a root and an offspring. A before and after. He created His Mom before she birthed Him. IMHO, that is!

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There are, IMO, two "bodies".
1) The Body(Bride) Of Christ...in communion with God as opposed to a pantheistic union.
2) the other group...which is an undefined number.(relativists would assert that there is no group but only individuals.) I would counter that there is an either/or division.

NIV writes:

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Luke 12:51-53
51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

Now why on earth would Jesus want to split up families???

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I think that He is essentially saying that because of His Oneness, there will be people either flocking towards Him (in communion) or rejecting Him.

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as far as the Bride and the Spirit, I think that they have something to do with this scripture as well:

NIV writes:

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John 17:20-23
20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

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It gets DEEP...thats for sure!