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Author Topic:   The Serpent of Genesis is not the Dragon of Revelations
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 211 of 302 (296782)
03-20-2006 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
03-19-2006 9:59 PM


Re: satanim
But the Israelites did have a tradition of ascribing bad behavior to unclean spirits.
While that does seem to enter the consideration is 1st century christians, where is your support that it was traditional amoung the isrealites?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 03-19-2006 9:59 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 03-20-2006 9:18 PM ramoss has not replied
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 212 of 302 (296792)
03-20-2006 12:37 PM


Bible Study without studying the Bible
Purpledawn seems to want to have a Bible Study without studying the Bible when it comes to comments on Paul's references to the serpent.
As far as Eve’s deception mentioned by Paul see Message 7. The point of Paul’s lesson doesn’t turn the serpent in Genesis into Satan (a supernatural enemy of God).
Purpledawn says this is about preachers who might lead the congregations under his teaching astray. I agree. But Paul said that these preachers and false apostle were ministers of Satan
"And no wonder, for Satan himself transfigures himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if also his ministers transfigure themselves into ministers of righteousness ..." (2 Cor. 11:14,15)
This is in the same chapter where Paul warns of Corinthians being deceived from the simplicty of Christ by the false apostles as the serpent deceived Eve. The false apostles were ministers of Satan leading the disciples from God's new testament economy.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-20-2006 12:38 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-20-2006 12:39 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-20-2006 12:40 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-20-2006 12:41 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by purpledawn, posted 03-20-2006 2:22 PM jaywill has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 213 of 302 (296820)
03-20-2006 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by jaywill
03-20-2006 12:37 PM


Re: Bible Study without studying the Bible
quote:
Purpledawn seems to want to have a Bible Study without studying the Bible when it comes to comments on Paul's references to the serpent.
There is a difference between studying the Bible and studying lessons or sermons presented about the Bible.
I made it very clear in the OP that my case is based on the plain text and that is what I wish to discuss.
I'd appreciate it, if you would stop claiming that I am not studying the Bible (not sure what else you think I'm looking at) or that I reject God's word if I don't agree with your statements or sermons.
I feel you are trying to make your point by intimidation. Please stick to the text.
quote:
But Paul said that these preachers and false apostle were ministers of Satan
Actually he didn't.
11:13-15
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.
He just insinuated that the competition could be, hoping his readers would jump to the came conclusion that you did.
He was warning them against subtle deception.
But again, Paul's comment concerning Satan has nothing to do with the snake in the Garden.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by jaywill, posted 03-20-2006 12:37 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by jaywill, posted 03-20-2006 6:42 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 215 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 03-20-2006 6:51 PM purpledawn has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 214 of 302 (296918)
03-20-2006 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by purpledawn
03-20-2006 2:22 PM


No Sermons Please - (that correct me.)
There is a difference between studying the Bible and studying lessons or sermons presented about the Bible.
Most "sermons" don't have people in the audience who can interject objections and challenge the sermonizer. The fact that you are allowed to raise objections, challenge, debate, or even take the talk in a whole different direction makes for a perculiar "sermon". I have never seen someone refuted so many times durning a sermon as you in this discussion.
I made it very clear in the OP that my case is based on the plain text and that is what I wish to discuss.
But your "plain text" explanation of what John meant in Revelation 12 is challenged. Perhaps you should have left that "plain text" reference out of the discussion's title.
There is a mistake in your title regardless of your OP. It is challenged. I have made my points. But you still resort to "Please stick to the topic" as a weak defense.
Since you have no strong defenese against the debunking of your erroneous title statement you now turn to charges of "sermonizing".
I'd appreciate it, if you would stop claiming that I am not studying the Bible (not sure what else you think I'm looking at) or that I reject God's word if I don't agree with your statements or sermons.
Get use to someone questioning your "study" which states highly debatable statements about what John meant in his reference to "the ancient serpent"
And the accusations of "sermons," "diatribes," "pontifications," "sermonettes," whatever other label you'd like to level at those who debunk you, doesn't bother me.
Beside you might learn something from a Bible thumping, holy roller, hoot and holler SERMONIZING Bible Study . Especially when you put out flaky stuff like John was not refering to Satan in Revelation as the ancient serpent, Satan the Devil.
I feel you are trying to make your point by intimidation. Please stick to the text.
That's your feeling and your problem.
But Paul said that these preachers and false apostle were ministers of Satan
Actually he didn't.
11:13-15
Actually he did. "For such ones are false apostles ...." (v.13)
Look back at verses 3,4 "But I fear lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your thoughts would be corrupted from the simplicity and purity toward Christ. (v.3)
For if indeed he who comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit, which you have not received, or a different gospel, which you have not accepted, you bear well with him. (v.4)
In this chapter Paul is speaking of the workers who were preaching a different Jesus from the Jesus presented in Paul and his co-workers's gospel of grace. Through out the chapter he is comparing himself with these false apostles. They were more elegant in speech but taught falsely. They boasted of support from the churches whereas Paul says he ironically considered taking support for thier sake as robbing other churches. Throughout he is presenting his ministry as the genuine apostle's ministry and those competitors as false apostles.
In verse 14 he says that they were Satan's ministers.
He just insinuated that the competition could be, hoping his readers would jump to the came conclusion that you did.
He was being quite direct and not using innuendo or insinuation at all:
"But what I do, I also will do, that I may cut off the opportunity of those desiring an opportunity, that in that thing in which they boast, they may be found even as we.
For such ones are false apostles ... "
.
The false apostles are "his [Satan's] ministers" the very same troubling workers who are are being used by Satan to craftily turn their pure love from Jesus Christ. This they do just as the serpent deceived Eve.
He was warning them against subtle deception.
Right. Subtle deception from [b]"false apostles"{/b who are "his [Satan's] ministers" transforming themselves into "ministers of righteousness." Satan was using these "ministers" to turn the Corinthian's pure devotion towards Christ away from Christ, even as the serpent deceived Eve.
It is the same evil spiritual entity that Eve confronted which the new covenant apostles now confront over the devotion of the Corinthian church.
But again, Paul's comment concerning Satan has nothing to do with the snake in the Garden.
Incorrect. The serpent in the garden is at work as Satan with his phony "ministers of righteousness" doing his biding by corrupting the hearts of the Corinthian congregation.
The "serpent deceived Eve" is associated with "he who comes preaches another Jesus". And these ones who were coming doing so were the false apostles and ministers of Satan.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-20-2006 06:43 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-20-2006 06:44 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-20-2006 06:51 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-20-2006 06:53 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-20-2006 06:55 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by purpledawn, posted 03-20-2006 2:22 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by ringo, posted 03-20-2006 7:12 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 219 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 03-20-2006 7:28 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 222 by purpledawn, posted 03-20-2006 8:34 PM jaywill has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 215 of 302 (296921)
03-20-2006 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by purpledawn
03-20-2006 2:22 PM


Re: Bible Study without studying the Bible
My apologies purpledawn. I didn't see that post before.
I have to ask, however, exactly how one is supposed to debate the position as you've presented it?
The evidence within the Scriptures is minimal, since the serpent is not the central focus of the Scriptures, so much so that one could simply do a poll and see what people think -- and it would acheive much the same effect as the debate you've presented.
It seems as though any meaningful discusion beyond a simple poll is nearly impossible to achieve within the framework as you've presented it.
Just saying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by purpledawn, posted 03-20-2006 2:22 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by jaywill, posted 03-20-2006 7:12 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied
 Message 220 by purpledawn, posted 03-20-2006 7:34 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 216 of 302 (296924)
03-20-2006 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
03-20-2006 6:51 PM


Re: Bible Study without studying the Bible
I have to ask, however, exactly how one is supposed to debate the position as you've presented it?
That's really what I don't understand either.
It seems the polite thing for me to do is to stay out of Purpledawn's study.
But sometimes for the sake of more accurate examination of the Bible's meaning I have to argue and not just agree politely.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 03-20-2006 6:51 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 217 of 302 (296926)
03-20-2006 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by jaywill
03-20-2006 6:42 PM


Re: No Sermons Please - (that correct me.)
Jaywill writes:
you might learn something from a Bible thumping, holy roller, hoot and holler SERMONIZING Bible Study .
Unlikely.
I, for one, have heard that crap for decades and it's still just as empty as it ever was.
You have failed to establish a satanic link between the serpent and the dragon because you have failed to establish a Satan in opposition to God.

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This message is a reply to:
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Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 218 of 302 (296927)
03-20-2006 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Phat
03-20-2006 7:28 AM


Re: Plain Text meanings
PD writes:
I'm not really sure what you are asking about the plain text of the Genesis story.
PD writes:
That brings up a good point.
What were the authors intending to convey?
  • Were they drawing on the stories and legends that they heard from others? (Much as many of us do today as well...second hand traditions, interpretations, and information)
  • If they were drawing on such sources, can we gather that a cohesive zeitgeist was being discussed? Or was there controversy even then?
  • Good point Phat. That's what I was getting at too. It seems difficult, in my opinion, to completely divorce the Israelite culture from the cultures that preceeded it, surrounded it, and may have very likely influenced their thinking. Any "plain text" reading of Genesis is nearly void without examining the context of the times and cultures they emerged from.
    This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 03-20-2006 07:20 PM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 209 by Phat, posted 03-20-2006 7:28 AM Phat has not replied

    Mr. Ex Nihilo
    Member (Idle past 1337 days)
    Posts: 712
    Joined: 04-12-2005


    Message 219 of 302 (296930)
    03-20-2006 7:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 214 by jaywill
    03-20-2006 6:42 PM


    Re: No Sermons Please - (that correct me.)
    jaywill writes:
    The "serpent deceived Eve" is associated with "he who comes preaches another Jesus". And these ones who were coming doing so were the false apostles and ministers of Satan.
    I think jaywill crushed the serpent's head with this one.
    purpledawn, I think you might be able to make a good case that the serpent in Genesis was not considered much more than a serpent in the Genesis account -- and even then, noting the cultures which preceeded and surrounded Israel, I'd issue a word of caution on this.
    But if you're going to attempt to argue that the Christian Scriptures are not linking the the serpent in the garden directly with the adversary as presented in the Apocalypse, then I think you're going to have to do a bit more work. I, for one, haven't read any convincing arguments as to why a Christian can't accept this idea.
    jaywill, do you know of any passages within the Scriptures which talks about God creating man with the special purporse of defeating the adversary but failing...or somesuch?
    This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 03-20-2006 07:29 PM
    This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 03-20-2006 07:34 PM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 214 by jaywill, posted 03-20-2006 6:42 PM jaywill has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 240 by jaywill, posted 03-22-2006 8:48 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 3458 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 220 of 302 (296932)
    03-20-2006 7:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 215 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
    03-20-2006 6:51 PM


    Just Saying What
    Not sure what you are just saying. Please be more specific.

    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 215 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 03-20-2006 6:51 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 221 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 03-20-2006 8:20 PM purpledawn has replied

    Mr. Ex Nihilo
    Member (Idle past 1337 days)
    Posts: 712
    Joined: 04-12-2005


    Message 221 of 302 (296936)
    03-20-2006 8:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 220 by purpledawn
    03-20-2006 7:34 PM


    Re: Just Saying What
    It seems as if you're restricting the amount of analogy that one can draw upon. With only a limited amount to select from it seems as if one could simply answer this thread with an answer not much different from a yes or no poll.
    In other words, considering the restrictions placed on what is permissible within this debate, it seems as though you could have just as easily asked, "Do you think the Serpent of Genesis is the Dragon of Revelations: Yes or No?"
    It would have covered fairly well the extent of the answers we can fairly give without applying the restrictions in the process.
    That's what I'm saying.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 220 by purpledawn, posted 03-20-2006 7:34 PM purpledawn has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 223 by purpledawn, posted 03-20-2006 8:40 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 3458 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 222 of 302 (296939)
    03-20-2006 8:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 214 by jaywill
    03-20-2006 6:42 PM


    Summary Please
    quote:
    But your "plain text" explanation of what John meant in Revelation 12 is challenged.
    It really doesn't matter if you agree with my explanation of what I feel John meant. There are many variations. You can believe that the dragon is Satan (enemy of God) all you want.
    The symbology used in Revelation doesn't automatically make the snake in the Adam and Eve story into or represent Satan (enemy of God). My concern is the Adam and Eve story. I have no problem with what John is saying, which I've told you before. His vision does not change the Adam and Eve Story.
    As usual you are focusing on the wrong thing.
    In Message 170 I summarized your comments that I could find concerning the plain sense reading of the texts. I'm comfortable with my opinion in the OP. No one has presented anything signficantly contrary concerning the plain text reading.
    quote:
    Beside you might learn something from a Bible thumping, holy roller, hoot and holler SERMONIZING Bible Study . Especially when you put out flaky stuff like John was not refering to Satan in Revelation as the ancient serpent, Satan the Devil.
    Been there, done that.
    Actually in Message 7 I said:
    Actually the ancient serpent refers to the great dragon and for the purposes of John's vision the Satan personna is portrayed by this huge serpentine creature. It isn't saying that Satan is a huge serpentine creature and it isn't referring back to Genesis.
    "And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him." (Rev.12:9)
    Notice that the term acient serpent refers back to the dragon. Then it states "he who is called the Devil and Satan. The verse doesn't actually say it is Satan (enemy of God). As you so clearly pointed out in Message 10:
    jaywill writes:
    The writing is not saying that Satan is a huge serpentine creature. That is for sure. The book of Revelation was made known to John "by signs".
    "The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show to His slaves the things that must quickly take place; and He made it known by signs ..." (Rev. 1:1)
    Over the thousands of years this book covers, animals have been used to symbolize or describe many different things and not always the same depending on the writer.
    My contention is that the talking snake in Genesis is just a talking snake, not Satan (enemy of God). The dragon in Revelation has its purpose, but it doesn't change the plain text reading of Genesis story.
    quote:
    Incorrect. The serpent in the garden is at work as Satan with his phony "ministers of righteousness" doing his biding by corrupting the hearts of the Corinthian congregation.
    The snake in the actual Garden did not present himself as righteous to Eve or as representing God. Paul uses the deception of Eve to illustrate the subtle deception he feels the false apostles are using, but he doesn't say that they are ministers of Satan (enemy of God). He just says that ministers of Satan (enemy of God) would probably work in disguise as he states Satan (enemy of God) does. I have no doubts as to Paul's purpose in what he is saying in these verses. I don't feel he is placing Satan (enemy of God) in the actual Garden of Eden.

    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 214 by jaywill, posted 03-20-2006 6:42 PM jaywill has not replied

    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 3458 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 223 of 302 (296942)
    03-20-2006 8:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 221 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
    03-20-2006 8:20 PM


    Re: Just Saying What
    quote:
    It seems as if you're restricting the amount of analogy that one can draw upon. With only a limited amount to select from it seems as if one could simply answer this thread with an answer not much different from a yes or no poll.
    You have the whole Bible to draw upon, but the analogies need to actually be in the text of the Bible not projected onto it.
    That's all I ask.

    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 221 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 03-20-2006 8:20 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 225 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 03-20-2006 9:47 PM purpledawn has replied

    Mr. Ex Nihilo
    Member (Idle past 1337 days)
    Posts: 712
    Joined: 04-12-2005


    Message 224 of 302 (296956)
    03-20-2006 9:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 211 by ramoss
    03-20-2006 10:54 AM


    Re: satanim
    ramoss writes:
    While that does seem to enter the consideration is 1st century christians, where is your support that it was traditional amoung the isrealites?
    It seems to me that exorcism came from the Israelites before Christianity set foot on the earth. An example of this thinking can be found within the Christian era itself based on Josephus' writings.
    Jewish Exorcist uses Solomon's Methods writes:
    (Solomon) also composed the kind of incantations by which (spiritual) disorders are alleviated. And he left his posterity the way to use exorcisms to drive away demons so that they never return. This type of cure is exceptionally powerful among our own people down to this day [ca. 90 CE].
    As you may know, I have observed a man by the name of Eleazar free a demon-possessed victim in the presence of Vespasian [the emperor], his sons and tribunes, and a host of other military personnel. This is how he went about it.
    He would hold a ring to the nose of the possessed victim --- a ring that had one of those roots prescribed by Solomon under its seal --- and then, as the victim got a whiff of the root, he would draw the demon out through the victim's nostrils. The victim would collapse on the spot and (Eleazar) would adjure it never again to enter him, invoking Solomon by name and reciting incantations Solomon had composed.
    Since Eleazar was always determined to captivate his audience and demonstrate he possessed this power, he would place a cup or basin full of water not far from the victim and would order the demon to tip these vessels over on the way out and thus demonstrate to the onlookers that it had actually taken leave of the victim.
    --- Josephus, Antiquities 8.5
    I suppose I could point to the writings contained within Tobit as well.
    The Hebrew Scriptures do depict people doing evil in order to attain demon's graces so to speak.
    Deuteronomy 32:17 writes:
    They sacrificed to demons, which are not God” gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared, gods your fathers did not fear.
    Psalm 106:37 writes:
    They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons.
    Admittdely, many other cultures prior to Christianity also had similar views too. But as far as the Israelite's traditions are concerned, one could note some of the following exmaples within the Hebrew Scriptures...
    1. A wizard -- that is, a soothsayer or a necromancer -- has a familiar spirit in Leviticus 20:27 (New International Version)
    A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.
    2. God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem in Judges 9:23 (New International Version)
    God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the citizens of Shechem, who acted treacherously against Abimelech.
    3. The witch at Endor was said to be in contact with a familiar spirit in I Samuel 28:7 (New International Version)
    Saul then said to his attendants, "Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her."
    "There is one in Endor," they said.
    4. King Ahab of Israel was judicially given up by God to succumb to a lying spirit of false prophecy in 1 Kings 22:22-23 (New International Version)
    'By what means?' the LORD asked.
    'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
    'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'
    So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.
    5. God says the spirit of harlotry caused His people Israel to err in Hosea 4:12 and 5:4.
    They consult a wooden idol
    and are answered by a stick of wood.
    A spirit of prostitution leads them astray;
    they are unfaithful to their God.
    and..
    Their deeds do not permit them
    to return to their God.
    A spirit of prostitution is in their heart;
    they do not acknowledge the LORD.
    There's a lot more too.
    Solomon and Beelzebul writes:
    And again I summoned Beelzebul, the prince of demons, to stand before me; and I sat him down on a high seat of honor and asked him: "Why are you alone, prince of demons?"
    He told me: "Because of (all) of heaven's angels descended, I alone am left. For in the first heaven, I was first angel, named Be'el-zebul ["Lord of heaven"]. And now I control all those who are bound in Tartarus..."
    I, Solomon, asked him: "Beelzebul, what is your job?"
    He replied to me: "I destroy kings. I ally myself with tyrants.
    And I send my own demons, so that men may believe in them and be lost. And I incite God's chosen servants, priests and pious men, to want wicked sins, evil heresies and lawless deeds. And they obey me and I carry them to destruction. And I inspire men with envy and murder, wars and sodomy, and other evils. And I will destroy the world..."
    I said to him: "Tell me, by what angel are you checked?"
    He replied: "By the holy and precious Name of God Almighty, whom the Hebrews call by a string of numbers totaling 664; and with the Greeks it is "Emmanuel"; and when a Roman orders me by the great name of the power of Eleeth, I vanish immediately."
    I, Solomon, was amazed when I heard this. And I commanded him to saw up Theban marbles. And when he started sawing the marbles, the other demons shrieked out loud, howling for their king.
    --- Pseudepigrapha, Testament of Solomon 6:1-4, 8-9 [ms. P]
    Watering Unclean Spirits writes:
    A pagan told Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai: "These rituals that you perform look like a type of magic. You bring a heifer, burn it, beat it and keep its ashes. If one of you is defiled by a dead body, you sprinkle two or three drops of it (in water) on him and tell him: "You are clean!"
    Rabbi Johanan asked him: "Has the demon of madness ever possessed you?"
    He replied: "No."
    Rabbi Johanan: "Have you ever seen a man possessed by this demon of madness?"
    He said: "Yes."
    Rabbi Johanan: "What do you do in that case?"
    He replied: "We bring roots and make them smoke under him. Then we sprinkle water on the demon and it leaves."
    Rabbi Johanan told him: "Your ears should listen to what your mouth says. This spirit is an unclean spirit just like the other. Purifying water is sprinkled on the unclean and the spirit leaves, as it is written: 'And I will make the prophets and the unclean spirit leave the land' (Zech 13:2).
    When the pagan had left, Rabbi Johanan's disciples said to their teacher: "Master, you put this man off with an improvisation. What explanation (of the ritual of the ashes of the red heifer) will you give us?"
    He told them: "You bet your life, it isn't the dead that defiles or the water that purifies! The Holy One, blessed be he!, says only: 'I have established a statute. I have issued a decree. You are not allowed to transgress my decree, as it is written: "This is a statute of the Law"'" (Num 19:2).
    --- Midrash, Bemidbar Rabba Hukkat 19.8
    I dunno. Seems to me there's a tradition of ascribing some behaviors to unclean spirits -- which seems to be the Hebrew equivalent of the Christian concept of demons.
    What do you think?
    This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 03-20-2006 09:25 PM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 211 by ramoss, posted 03-20-2006 10:54 AM ramoss has not replied

    Mr. Ex Nihilo
    Member (Idle past 1337 days)
    Posts: 712
    Joined: 04-12-2005


    Message 225 of 302 (296961)
    03-20-2006 9:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 223 by purpledawn
    03-20-2006 8:40 PM


    Re: Just Saying What
    But what if the people who wrote the Hebrew Scriptures already had their ideas about it?
    For example, consider the Wikipedia article...
    Early rabbinic Jewish statements in the Mishnah and Talmud show that Satan played little or no role in Jewish theology. In the course of time, however, Judaism absorbed the popular concepts of Satan, most likely inherited from Zoroastrianism. The later a rabbinic work can be dated the more frequent is the mention therein of Satan and his hosts.
    An example is found in Genesis: The serpent who had Eve eat the forbidden fruit. The consensus of the Biblical commentators in classical Judaism is that the serpent of the narrative in Genesis was literally a serpent. They differ regarding what it represented: The evil inclination (Yetzer HaRa), Satan, or the Angel of Death. Others have suggested that the serpent was a phallic symbol. According to the Midrash, before this cunning beast was cursed, it stood erect and was endowed with some faculty of communication. It is interesting to note, in this connection, that sperm "communicates" genetic information via DNA. The creative message is also known as the Logos (Gr. meaning Word).
    The Jerusalem Talmud, completed about 450 CE, is more reticent in this regard; and this is the more noteworthy since its provenance is the same as that of the New Testament.
    The Jewish concept, however, was that Satan cannot be viewed as an independent agent. In the Babylonian Talmud (Baba Bathra 16a), Rabbi Levi asserts that "everything Satan does is for the sake of heaven." When another rabbi preached a similar idea in his town, it is said that Satan himself came and "kissed his knees."
    The Babylonian Talmud (ibid) also states that the Evil Inclination (Yetzer ha-Ra), the Angel of Death and Satan are identical.
    In a midrash (Genesis Rabbah 19) Samael, the chief of the satans (a specific order of angel, not a reference to demons), was a mighty prince of angels in heaven. Samael came into the world with woman, that is, with Eve (Midrash Yalkut, Genesis 1:23), so that he was created and is not eternal. Like all celestial beings, he flies through the air (Genesis Rabbah 19), and can assume any form, as of a bird (Talmud, Sanhedrin 107a), a stag (ibid, 95a), a woman (ibid, 81a), a beggar, or a young man (Midrash Tanchuma, Wayera, end); he is said to skip (Talmud Pesachim 112b and Megilla. 11b), an allusion to his appearance in the form of a goat.
    In some works some rabbis hold that Satan is the incarnation of all evil, and his thoughts are devoted to the destruction of man. In this view, Satan, the impulse to evil and the angel of death are one and the same personality. Satan seizes upon even a single word which may be prejudicial to man; so that "one should not open his mouth unto evil," i.e., "unto Satan" (Talmud Berachot 19a). Likewise, in times of danger, he brings his accusations (Jerusalem Talmud, Shabbat 5b). While he has power over all the works of man (Talmud Berachot 46b), he can not prevail at the same time against two individuals of different nationality; so that Samuel, a noted astronomer, physician and teacher of the Law (died at Nehardea, 247), would start on a journey only when a Gentile traveled with him (Talmud, Shabbat 32a).
    Obviously opinions vary within Judaism, just as opinions vary within Christianity. And I myself will be stress that many of these Talmudic writings came after the dawn of early Christianity.
    However, if one is suggesting that the idea of serpent being the chief of adveraries is a Christian invention, then one has to wonder why some Jewish brethren arived at similar conclusions both before and after Christianity even came about. An investigation into the beliefs of the Essenes, a group which did predate Christianity, might be very relevent to this discussion. Various deuterocanonical Judeo-Hellenistic writings might give some insights too, such as the Wisdom of Solomon of Ecclesiasticus (not to be confused with Ecclesiastes found within the Hebrew Scriptures)
    This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 03-20-2006 10:15 PM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 223 by purpledawn, posted 03-20-2006 8:40 PM purpledawn has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 226 by purpledawn, posted 03-21-2006 10:11 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

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