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Author Topic:   Bible Cryptids/Dinosaurs?
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 76 of 202 (296916)
03-20-2006 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by crashfrog
03-20-2006 6:35 PM


Re: on the other hand....
Yes I've heared of this story before. I can just bust a gut when I think about it (LOL)
I did hint in the post you replied to that a dino bone could be thought of as a phallus, though I forgot that it could also look like Testicles as well. Thanks for the story

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by crashfrog, posted 03-20-2006 6:35 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by crashfrog, posted 03-20-2006 6:40 PM LudoRephaim has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 77 of 202 (296917)
03-20-2006 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by LudoRephaim
03-20-2006 6:38 PM


Re: on the other hand....
I did hint in the post you replied to that a dino bone could be thought of as a phallus, though I forgot that it could also look like Testicles as well.
Ah. I thought the similarity was just a humerous coincidence. (No pun intended.)
It's funny, though. Like, the guy never looked at a chicken bone or something? And didn't wonder why no other fossilized genitals had ever been found?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-20-2006 6:38 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-20-2006 6:49 PM crashfrog has not replied
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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 78 of 202 (296919)
03-20-2006 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by arachnophilia
03-20-2006 6:36 PM


Re: on the other hand....
It seesm that Job did know about Leviathan from the passage in Job 41, though it doesn't rule out that he knew this animal as a mythological/supernatural one.
But if you look at the poetic language used in Job 41, you can see that this animal is nothing more than a fierce, nightmarish animal, yet one that is not mythological. The "flames" it emits from it's mouth could be some form of self defense mechanism, which could have looked like or felt like fire. Just like it's "shields" are not metal armored shields like warriors use, but scales.
It seems to me like it is just another unknown animal like behemoth. The fact that it is named after the supernatural beast called "Leviathan" doesn't make it supernatural, anymore than the name "Tasmanian Devil" makes that animal a true demon, or the "Gorgon" a huge Protomammal carnivore that lived before the dinosaurs is a demon or mythical monster because it is named "gorgon" (also galled "Gorgonopsian) Leviathan in this passage (Job 41)is probably called as such because it reminded the ancients of the supernatural monster that bared the name in question, just as the Tasmanian Devil was named as such because of it's "Devilish" call and viciousness and the Gorgon was named after the greek Gorgon because of it's ugliness and savage appearance.
bTW: the "Gorgon" is discussed in "Gorgon: The Monsters that ruled the Planet before Dinosaurs and how they died in the greatest catastrophe in Earth's History" by Peter D. Ward. good book

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by arachnophilia, posted 03-20-2006 6:36 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by arachnophilia, posted 03-20-2006 9:39 PM LudoRephaim has replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 79 of 202 (296920)
03-20-2006 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by crashfrog
03-20-2006 6:40 PM


Re: on the other hand....
LOL good one Crash.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by crashfrog, posted 03-20-2006 6:40 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 80 of 202 (296922)
03-20-2006 7:01 PM


I had the idea once that the Leviathan here was in fact the monsterous "Liopleurodon" the 80 foot long 150 ton carnivorous sea reptile that lived in the Jurassic. But I dont think it could have survived up to the present, let alone if it had the same self defense mechanism as Leviathan does ("fire")
Good idea for a time, but it seems more likely that the "Leviathan" was some sort of crypto animal.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Replies to this message:
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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 81 of 202 (296923)
03-20-2006 7:06 PM


I think this has been the best debate I have had on here. Doesn't mean I am winning it (yet to be seen. You guys TOUGH!!)But it is the best I have been on here. I enjoy it a whole lot better than the abortion one (AAAAAHHHHHH!!!!)

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 82 of 202 (296953)
03-20-2006 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by crashfrog
03-20-2006 6:40 PM


Re: on the other hand....
BTW: Since your wife is a biologist, maybe you can answer this: Do testicles have sinews? That would be helpful with the thigh/stones part of this debate.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by crashfrog, posted 03-20-2006 6:40 PM crashfrog has not replied

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 83 of 202 (296958)
03-20-2006 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by LudoRephaim
03-20-2006 6:47 PM


Re: on the other hand....
It seems to me like it is just another unknown animal like behemoth. The fact that it is named after the supernatural beast called "Leviathan" doesn't make it supernatural, anymore than the name "Tasmanian Devil" makes that animal a true demon,
well, as i pointed, livyatanim are indeed very real animals: they are large blubbery mammals that live in the ocean. in english, we call them "whales." livyatan is the modern hebrew word for whale.
but job is NOT describing a whale, is it? whales don't have scales. they don't breath fire (in ANY manner of speaking). the only real similarity is that they're darned hard to catch with fishhooks.
or the "Gorgon" a huge Protomammal carnivore that lived before the dinosaurs is a demon or mythical monster because it is named "gorgon" (also galled "Gorgonopsian)
but surely you realize that this gorgon is named for these gorgons, not the other way around?
Leviathan in this passage (Job 41)is probably called as such because it reminded the ancients of the supernatural monster that bared the name in question,
the difference here is that the REAL livyatanim, the whales, are called as such because they remind people of the mythological creature -- the one in job 41, and genesis 1. you've mixed up which one is real, and which one is the myth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-20-2006 6:47 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-21-2006 6:24 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 87 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-21-2006 6:37 PM arachnophilia has not replied
 Message 88 by MangyTiger, posted 03-21-2006 7:48 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 91 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-21-2006 10:33 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 84 of 202 (296959)
03-20-2006 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by LudoRephaim
03-20-2006 7:01 PM


I had the idea once that the Leviathan here was in fact the monsterous "Liopleurodon" the 80 foot long 150 ton carnivorous sea reptile that lived in the Jurassic. But I dont think it could have survived up to the present, let alone if it had the same self defense mechanism as Leviathan does ("fire")
Good idea for a time, but it seems more likely that the "Leviathan" was some sort of crypto animal.
well, it an other similar aquatic reptiles DO fit the description in job rather well. it's certainly similar to the image a lot of people had in mind regarding whales in the past. i'm serious, too. there's a thread a while back where i posted some picture of interpretations of "jonah and the whale" that looked rather similar -- even as late as the renaissance.
but i think it's largely a coincidence. especially when we take into consideration the role leviathan plays elsewhere in the bible, and its relation to other ancient dragons in other cultures: lothan and tiamat.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-20-2006 7:01 PM LudoRephaim has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 85 of 202 (296960)
03-20-2006 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by LudoRephaim
03-20-2006 9:06 PM


Re: on the other hand....
BTW: Since your wife is a biologist, maybe you can answer this: Do testicles have sinews? That would be helpful with the thigh/stones part of this debate.
i doubt it matters, really. in depth biologically knowledge was is pretty new. we don't really get that until galen, and then it's lost again until about leonardo. and it's just a turn of phrase.
but more importantly, it's quibbling about semantics. clearly the verse is t alking about strength and sexual prowess/virility.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-20-2006 9:06 PM LudoRephaim has not replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 86 of 202 (297121)
03-21-2006 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by arachnophilia
03-20-2006 9:39 PM


Re: on the other hand....
I fail to see your point. Whales are named "Leviathan" in modern hebrew, yet any large animal of the prehistoric world and modern times can be called "Leviathan" do to it's size. Giant Squid? Leviathan! Whale Shark? Leviathan! Liopleurodon? Leviathan! If a massive sea reptile like Kronosaurus or Liopleurodon where around today in abundance, the they, not whales, might have been called "Leviathan" in modern hebrew. Usually anything massive and huge in the sea can and has been called "Leviathan". Just becuase whales are called as such in modern hebrew ultimately proves that the Leviathan of Job 41 is mythical?
So what if whales are named after Leviathan in modern hebrew? It doesn't automatically make the "Leviathan" of Job 41 mythical. The scales? Crocs and snakes have scales, and they are not mythical. "Fire" ? this is probably as I have said before, a self denfense mechanism. Bombarder Beetles shoot out super hot liquid from their abdomens. Fireflies generate light in their rears. The electric eel can generate electricity. Yet Leviathan in this passage has to be mythical becuase it emits "fire" which is more than likely something which resembled fire to the ancients?
If this was the supernatural Leviathan, the one with many heads (as Litan of Ugaritic legend and the "Leviathan" of Psalm 74:14) why does the "Leviathan of Job 41 have only one tongue, one nose, one jaw (Job 41:1-2)That does not sound like a multi-headed beast of myth/supernatural like That of Psalm 74:14 and Isaiah 27:1.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by arachnophilia, posted 03-20-2006 9:39 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by arachnophilia, posted 03-21-2006 10:52 PM LudoRephaim has replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 87 of 202 (297126)
03-21-2006 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by arachnophilia
03-20-2006 9:39 PM


Re: on the other hand....
As for the Gorgons: Yes, I knew that the Protomammal "Gorgon" was named after the "Gorgons" of greek myth. That was the point I was making. If the Protomammal "Gorgon" was named after the "Gorgons" of Greek myth becuase it was horrendous and terrifying in appearance, then the "Leviathan" of Job 41 was most likely named after the supernatural "Leviathan" due to it's ferocity and formidability.
Sorry if I sounded rude in my last post. I dont want to seem vicious, but on this forum I cant tell where politeness ends and harshness begins LOL

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by arachnophilia, posted 03-20-2006 9:39 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 88 of 202 (297133)
03-21-2006 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by arachnophilia
03-20-2006 9:39 PM


Re: on the other hand....
whales don't have scales. they don't breath fire (in ANY manner of speaking)
Indeed not but they do blow large water spouts which could (at a bit of a stretch, or more to the point from a distance) be mistaken for steam or smoke - and we know there's no smoke without fire...
P.S. I assume the ANY was to head off this very point - but I thought it was worth mentioning in passing anyway.

I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by arachnophilia, posted 03-20-2006 9:39 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 89 of 202 (297157)
03-21-2006 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by MangyTiger
03-21-2006 7:48 PM


Re: on the other hand....
Good post mandytiger

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by MangyTiger, posted 03-21-2006 7:48 PM MangyTiger has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 90 of 202 (297158)
03-21-2006 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by MangyTiger
03-21-2006 7:48 PM


Re: on the other hand....
Indeed not but they do blow large water spouts which could (at a bit of a stretch, or more to the point from a distance) be mistaken for steam or smoke - and we know there's no smoke without fire...
P.S. I assume the ANY was to head off this very point - but I thought it was worth mentioning in passing anyway.
that might be a good point... but the point i'm trying to make, to rephrase, is that leviathan is NOT a whale, even it is based on a whale. it's not a giant squid, even if it's based on a giant squid. it's a monster, and mythological, like the kraken, or like scylla in homer.


This message is a reply to:
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