Time, a brief history

I have a little theory on time that I feel leans towards the existance of God. Please give it some thought and I would love to hear your replies.Time doesn't fly, there is no father time, time is just another measurement. It makes more sense to me to view the history of the universe as "the history of the universe" rather than call it time or anything else. Time is a measurement of change and should not be used to describe all change that has happened or will happen because I think it causes confusion. When we think philisophically, we use language in our minds. We use what we know as fact and try to formulate theories that most logically coincide with those facts. If you look up time in a dictionary you will see many definitions.I know that in mathematics time is used in equations like mass, velocity, and distance. "The second (symbol s) is a unit for time, and one of seven SI base units. It is defined as the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom at zero kelvin."(googled it lol) There has to be something that changes for time to be measured. Time is just another measurement of matter like weight, velocity, gravity, magnetism etc etc. This lead me to believe that without matter, measurements like weight, velocity, and time do not exist or exist only in imagination. For example, how could you compare nothing to nothing? I came to the conclusion that time, weight, velocity and all the other measurements did not come into existance until matter did. I feel that the begining to time has to be the begining of matter. History began when matter was created.Most of us would agree that the past is done and over with, it cannot be changed. For us to get to this particular point in history, i.e., you sitting there right now, your ancestors had to live and die, the earth had to make a certain revolutions around the sun etc etc. I found a problem with the thought of the universe always existing. If the past was done and over with, it could not have gone back forever otherwise we would never get to the current point we are at. How could you start at negative infinity and climb to 2006? Even if history repeated itself I felt that we would still be at a certain number of repetitions. Another way of explaining it, is if all matter had to react with itself to reach the form it is at today it could not have been forever reacting in history.It makes far more sense to me to believe the bible and accept that the universe was created by God. When God created matter and the laws of physics and time, history, weight, velocity and all other measurements could now be measured.It explains in the Bible that God is unchanging. In the book of Malachi it says "I the Lord do not change." (NIV) It is a very interesting statement to me. That would mean that God is not made of matter, seeing how all matter changes, nor is he bound by any of the laws of physics. God made matter and all of natures laws. Jesus meant it when he said "God is Love." Anyway, I understand that my theory by no means proves God's existance. Personally, I find it foolish to accept that God can create everything including the laws of the universe, then try to disprove or prove his existance using those same laws or think that he is bound by them. However, science is bound by those laws and I think is flawed if you think of the universe as always being in existance.

OK. my admin mode promoted you here to Big Bang/Cosmology. In the footnote to this forum, it states: Interesting. You are going "all philosophic" on us here! In a science forum such as Cosmology, however, time needs to be agreed upon. Did you have a theory as to your perception of time as it relates to the history of this universe? So History began when matter was created, eh? Now is the proverbial fork in the road that I told you about. You chose Cosmology and Science, so we need to discuss your philosophy in this context. Yes, but remember that you chose Cosmology and not Theology. You are quite the thinker! Tell me...we don't know for sure how the universe got here. Some of us believe that God stepped out of infinity into time and created it one day...(a Thursday at 2:38 p.m. I think! ) Others of us have a strict scientific way of looking at it. Lets discuss this with others, OK?This message has been edited by Phat, 03-20-2006 04:04 AM

Or maybe a vastly dense singularity sprang into existence billions of years ago at God's immortal words. The universe springing from a timeless God seems no easier to explain than a universe springing from a timeless void. It's an additional complication. Now you not only have the concept of timelessness to explain, but the concept of God as well. It's still an open question whether the universe is gravitationally closed or not. Even if it, however, light from the Sun, or even our galaxy, would be incredibly faint by the time it circumnavigated the universe and got back to us. Not only that, but the Sun would be a slowly cooling white dwarf by then. Perhaps, although two obvious questions arise:1. What's the sphere made of?
2. What's outside?Thinking up new speculative models is fun. Making models that explain observations better than existing models--therein lies the rub.This message has been edited by Posit, 03-21-2006 07:53 AM

Welcome to EvC by the way, Posit! Lets get Mr. Dictionary in on the action! Since we are thinking with a scientific mindset, what type of model best fits literalist creationism? (God did it.) What type of other speculations can we use...seeing as how God gave us all wonderful minds to reason with! OK lets do it! In the first example of time, time is a point, set, rate, age, or system.In the second example of time, the definition implies One who arranges, One who sets, or One who determines the value of the time.From my human perspective, I can either choose to believe that God arranges, sets, or determines everything...(which is OK but limiting)
or I can respectfully ask God to allow me to speculate on the origin of concepts such as time and space without assuming that He exists.I am no cosmologist, nor am I even a smart theologian. I just like to toss concepts, definitions, and ideas back and forth with others.....kinda like a game of pong! Your serve, anyone?This message has been edited by Phat, 03-21-2006 07:45 AM

Can you sum up in a line or two what your theory says?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The theory is that history is a truth that has already happened and has to have a begining because of it's nature.

Well, that's certainly something more concise. Why do you think that? From what I gather listening to our resident cosmologists, and I am certainly not one of them, time itself really starts losing all meaning as we mover closer to the Big Bang.But even if true, what would that have to do with the question of GOD? Granted many of us believe that GOD is that which has always existed, but the fact that time might be limited says nothing about GOD.GOD's existence is just a belief though and as such, requires no proof.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

First, that's assuming there was a big bang, not that I entirely disagree with it. Second, I don't understand what you said by time losing meaning as we approach the big bang. As for God, as I stated, I feel he's not made of any matter thus he's not affected by time but actually controls it. That is why the Bible says he does not change. All matter changes. I could only guess as to exactly what God is or his motives. Science I feel is a creation of God. Comparing the two is like comparing a dream with the dreamer. The idea of an infinate universe is impossible to my logic. It's like being on a certain floor of a sky scraper that never touches the ground. I accept God because I can imagine something greater than matter, and thus time, even though I don't understand him or have ever seen him. When we study the universe we use certain laws that everyone accepts as fact to determine age, composition, size, temperature etc. Using those same laws I just can't accept an infinate anything consisting of matter.

I might have been redundant with some of what you said. As for God, I agree with what you say. I only added God into the satement because of the fact that he says he does not change. Naturally, if someone says time had a begining, usually the question that follows is "What started it?"

Well, there is lots of evidence for the Big Bamg, so it's not an assumption but rather a conclusion based on the evidence. I believe you don't. But as I'm sure one of our cosmologists will explain to you, even time itself as well as all of our laws of physics just don't seem to make sense or apply as we get close to the instant of teh BB. In addition, terms like "before the Big Bang" definite don't have any meaning within the knowledge we have so far. That's fine. I also believe that. But it's also something where there is NO evidence either for or against and so has no place in any scientific discussion. It's just empty words. Well, actually we hold them as tentatively proved, as the best explanation we've had so far. Fine. But again, incredulity has nothing to do with science or knowledge.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Ok but BB does not answer much and doesn't discount my theory. Supposing BB is true still doesn't solve my problem with history I will wait for their reply I guess, nice cheap shot btw. Well we can't exactly prove how the universe is the way it is in a lab

Well, as I've said, I have not yet seen a theory. Can't quite figure out what your problem with history is? Why not? It seems that is exactly what Science does? Understand, science does not PROVE anything. All things are held tentatively. But we can build theories that are the best available explanation, and the Big Bang has stood up to many, many challenges. It's certainly one of the better supported theories.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

quote:

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It explains in the Bible that God is unchanging. In the book of Malachi it says "I the Lord do not change." (NIV) It is a very interesting statement to me. That would mean that God is not made of matter, seeing how all matter changes, nor is he bound by any of the laws of physics.

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Funny you should say that. I should think quite the opposite: your musings are evidence the god of the bible does not exist. God can change his mind, for instance the bible tells us He created a flood when he was disappointed in man. But disapointment means He is as much subject to time as we are; because apparently earlier He wasn't disappointed yet. In fact, if He's truly outside time, if He knows past, present and future, He would know the world would turn out as it did. But then why did He bother creating it?

I'm getting off topic but I'll share my view. God wanted companionship and it is his nature to create. That is why it is also our nature to create. He made us in his own image. He is free to think how he wants and he wanted us to have the same right. Satan was once an angel and he challenged God's wisdom. This was the war in heaven, a war of ideas. After the war, satan was allowed to tempt man into betraying God. God created us and paved the way for us to follow him on faith. Man was doomed from the begining. Jesus became a man and lived without disobeying God and was punished for us. God is just and that satisfied God's need for justice. I try not to think Good or Evil, just with God or against God. I think God simply wants to find the souls that are willing to stand with him and trust him. I see God as perfect and having wisdom that is beyond ours. As far as God knowing everything, perhaps he chooses to not look sometimes? Who knows...

All evidence I have seen points to the fact that matter reacts with other matter. After a long series of reactions(ex. gravity, magnetism, energy etc.) the universe took the shape it is currently at. These reactions had to happen before the universe could become exactly the form it is today. I can accept that reactions could continue to happen forever in the future but not that reactions happened forever in the past. -Hope that helps clarify things