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Author Topic:   The Serpent of Genesis is not the Dragon of Revelations
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 235 of 302 (297223)
03-22-2006 6:16 AM


Mr. X,
Thanks for your labors. There are many valid points to consider in your research there.
I've done some swift catch up reading here.

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 237 of 302 (297227)
03-22-2006 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by arachnophilia
03-22-2006 4:39 AM


Re: what was eve, then?
Arach,
the point i'm trying to make here is that there's a lot of different interpretation going on. finding one little bit that supports your idea doesn't actually mean anything. it's just how one particular author read that particular passage, and what he thought it meant. these are ALL post-biblical, and non-biblical.
but like i said, a certain point, you have to deal with the fact that this is a story with a talking snake in it.
So your point seem to be that there are many views and opinions and that at a certain point one has to realize that a talking snake issue is really the only thing that is important?
Beside a talking snake you also have a number of other things which are equally in demand of dealing with:
1.) A tree of life
2.) A tree of the knowledge of good and evil
3.) A first man and a first woman for that matter
4.) God freely and audibly speaking and conversing with humans
5.) A paradise Eden
6.) A woman formed from the rib of a man
7.) Human beings potentially free from death until they sin
Are any of these matters less issues that one must eventually deal with like a talking snake?
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-22-2006 06:42 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by arachnophilia, posted 03-22-2006 4:39 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by arachnophilia, posted 03-22-2006 5:10 PM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 238 of 302 (297231)
03-22-2006 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by ramoss
03-20-2006 10:54 AM


Re: satanim
Ramoss,
But the Israelites did have a tradition of ascribing bad behavior to unclean spirits.
While that does seem to enter the consideration is 1st century christians, where is your support that it was traditional amoung the isrealites?

Psalm 106:37
Leviticus 19:31; 20:6,27; 17:7
Deut. 18:11
First Samual 16:14,15,16,28; 18:10; 19:9; 28:3,7,8,9; 2 Kings 21:6; 23:4;
1 Chron 10:13
2 Chron. 33:6
Judges 9:23
Isa. 8:19;19:3;29:4


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by ramoss, posted 03-20-2006 10:54 AM ramoss has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 240 of 302 (297256)
03-22-2006 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
03-20-2006 7:28 PM


Man to stop the enemy
Mr. Ex Nihlo,
jaywill, do you know of any passages within the Scriptures which talks about God creating man with the special purporse of defeating the adversary but failing...or somesuch?
As for Adam having a mandate to defeat God's advasary I would submit Psalm 8. As for man failing to attain to that I would argue that that is precisely what Genesis three reveals.
I would present Psalm 8 with that interpretation. It is a Psalm on creation. And in it man is spoken of as positioned to still the avenger and the advasary:
"O Jehovah our Lord, How excellent is Your name in all the earth, You who have set Your glory over the heavens! Out of the mouths of babes abd sucklings You have established strength because of Your advasaries, To stop the enemy and the avenger.
When I see You heavens, the works of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You ordained, what is mortal man, that You remember him, and the son of man that You visit him?
You have made him a little lower than the angels and have crowned him whith glory and honor. For you have caused him to rule over the works of You hands;
You have put all things inder his feet ...
The Recovery Version margin indicates "established strength" is rendered "estalbished praise" in the Septuagint. And "angels" in verse 5 is elohim, normally translated God.
I need to learn more about these variants. However we have in this Psalm man made a little lower than God or angels to establish strength or praise because of God's advasaries and God's enemy.
Two questions I ask myself when I study this Psalm in the context of the whole Bible:
1.) Are the advasaries of God and the enemy of God here only human?
Answer: At present I believe that this should not be the case that human beings were created to establish strength against only other human advasaries of God. If they were all created for that purpose then where would human advasaries against God come into God's plan?
It rather should indicate spiritual advasaries and enemy of God. That these were joined by human ones might be understandable. At present I take it that God created man with a mandate not only to have dominion over creation but to establish His strength against ancient angelic advasaries and an enemy. That would of course be Satan and his host of evil angels and evil spirits.
2.) The other fair question which I have contemplated is, could it be that the mandate to stop the enemy was only added to the created man's purpose AFTER Adam sinned?
At present I think the weight of the biblical evidence is that this was mandated to man from God in man's inherant creation and not added as an afterthought.
A first or the first recorded advasary or enemy of God in Genesis is the serpent. Whether you want to view that serpent as a satan or Satan makes little difference to this point. Had Adam and Eve excercised thier divine ordination to have dominion over all the earth and the creeping things thereof (Gen. 1:26) he would NEVER have allowed his family to succumb to a contradictory word against God.
I think the enemy and advasary knew better than most of us what this creature made from the dust called Adam was ordained to. And it launched a preemptive strike to save its own life. This may be difficult to prove from the text of Genesis.
But consider. Why wouldn't Adam and Eve go immediatly to God and protest that in paradise there was this creature who was subtly contradictiing the word of God? Why is it hard to imagine that what should have happened is that Eve tells Adam of the serpent. Adam says "What? One of the creatures is contradicting God's command? Oh God what is THIS ??."
Then God with Adam's approval would destroy the serpent from the garden (and all that was associated with the serpent). And why not? Man was to have dominion acting in consort and obedience with his Creator. Maybe God would have told Adam as He told Moses in effect "Why call on me? Destroy the lying serpent immediately." See how God commands Moses to take the initiative to miraculously cross the Red Sea:
"And Jehovah said to Moses, Why do you cry out to Me? Tell the children of Israel to move forward" (Exo. 14:15)
God could have likewise have told Adam to take the initiative and remove or destroy the evil creature from the garden. Many people have read Genesis and thought to themselves "Wait a minute. If this is suppose to be paradise what is this subtle lying serpent doing in the picture? This doesn't fit."
I think the first persons who should have realized that the serpent "didn't fit" should have been Adam and Eve who were ordained to "have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven and over the cattle and over all the earth .... AND over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth" (Gen. 1:26)
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-22-2006 08:53 AM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-22-2006 08:55 AM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-22-2006 08:55 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 03-20-2006 7:28 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 241 of 302 (297267)
03-22-2006 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by jaywill
03-22-2006 8:48 AM


Beyond "The Jewish Concept" with Satan
Mr. Ex Nihlo,
I want to add that I understand why the Old Testament Jewish concept of Satan might be more restricted among some adherents of Judiasm. The cocept of salvation is likewise restricted with them to a national Messiah. So since man as a whole and creation as a whole are viewed as that important to a restrictive national messiah, a larger function of an advasary might not play into their concept.
If Yahwehs' only concern is to free Israel from her national enemies then there might be less importance given by such believers to a cosmic struggle between the God of all creation against an enemy with the whole human race in view.
Not that the Hebrew Scriptures themselves would always represent such a "Jewish concept" of Satan or salvation. Even in the messianic Isaiah 11 we have the Gentiles hoping in God's anointed servent:
"Him will the nations seek, And His resting place will be glorious" (Isa. 11:10). The Gentiles look to the anointed national Savior of Israel as well. And His reign also has a restorational effect on the natural world:
"Righteuosness will be that which girds His loins, And faithfulness will be that wwhich girds His hips,
And the wolf will dwell with the lamb; and the leopard will lie down with the kid, and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a young boy will lead them about. The cow and the bear will grazel Their young will lie down together; And the lion will eat straw like an ox. The nursing child will play by the cobra's hole, and upon the viper's den the weaned child will stretch out his hand.
They will not harm nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea.
And in that day the root of Jesse, who stands as a banner to the peoples - Him will the nations seek ..." (See Isaiah 11:5-10)
Though this passage doesn't mention Satan, it does show the effect of God's messianic salvation reaching beyond just the cultural interests of Israel as a nation. The hope encompasses the whole world and the environment of the earth as well. By way of extention the advasary of God to be conquered is more than an national divinely appointed attorney related to the restrictive "Jewish concept".
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-22-2006 09:17 AM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-22-2006 09:19 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by jaywill, posted 03-22-2006 8:48 AM jaywill has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 244 of 302 (297384)
03-22-2006 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by arachnophilia
03-22-2006 5:10 PM


Hung up on a supernatural snake ?
quite the opposite. the fact that a snake talks is NOT important. but it's one we seem to get stuck on -- and one that leads people to think that the snake was supernatural. or, as one of the accounts above puts it, possessed. clearly this talking thing was on the minds of the readers and reinterpretters of genesis -- all three accounts i presented attempt to explain why snakes no longer talk.
but in genesis, the idea that the snake talks is, well, pretty nonchalant. it's just a story with a talking snake. i'm basically saying "get over it, and stop trying to explain it."
What is really important is that the man created by God and for God has come to be estranged from God and at odds with God. That I think is more important. At least any discussion concerning the serpent that I have engaged in is with this in view - What happened to man and his relationship with God.
The remedy of the problem is important. And to come to a remedy one must know the causes of the sickness. With many students of the Bible the nature of the cause of man's fall is important to the remedy of such a tragedy. In that context the exposure of what the serpent means becomes important.
So unlike you I don't see many Bible students being hung up on the snake or even focusing on the snake. It may seem that way to some people who launch an objection that the serpent means nothing more than a animal, and that is that. So in defending the deeper significances of the serpent you may surmise "Why are people hung up on a supernatural snake?"
But the focus is not the serpent. It is the cause of man's fall and the nature of his salvation and victory over those causes - That is the perspective that I would be coming from.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-22-2006 05:20 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-22-2006 05:21 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-22-2006 05:23 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by arachnophilia, posted 03-22-2006 5:10 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by arachnophilia, posted 03-22-2006 5:37 PM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 247 of 302 (297412)
03-22-2006 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by arachnophilia
03-22-2006 5:37 PM


Re: Hung up on a supernatural snake ?
well, the snake is important here, but only in the aspect that he's neccessary to tell the moral: we can't blame the snake for our actions.
It doesn't seem that God lets Adam off the hook but rather does indeed hold him responsible. Yet at the same time God does not totally ignore that the serpent did either.
If the moral of the story was that man alone was the guilty party it should have had nothing whatsoever pronounced about the serpent's punishment. Don't you think?
in numbers, when snakes are the problem, a snake is the solution. the symbol of a snake on a standard is still a popular emblem of the medical profession. moses uses the image of a snake to heal the wounds of snake.
Moses just obeyed God's command. It is Christ who injected the real interpretation into the lifting up of the bronze serpent in John chapter 3.
Incidently, latter the people worshipped the bronze serpent and one of the kings had to have it destroyed. It had been saved for generations and become an idol. Some people must have missed the point in making it an idol.
now, i'm sure you're making a christ reference above. you do so love to preach,
Sure do. Haven't you read "How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of him who brings good news, of him who announces peace, who brings good news of good things; Who says to Zion, Your God reigns" (Isa. 72:7)
Perhaps you never felt that God gave you anything worth announcing to anyone. I'm sorry. It should be quite a normal human experience.
why not just come out and say it?
Say what? Jesus is Lord and the Savior of man? Jesus did crush the head of the serpent.
i specifically want the numbers issue addressed because this is one of the issues that really, really bugged me years ago when i was still working this out.
a snake on a stick seems a little like crucifixion, doesn't it? our wounds healed by something hanging from a large piece of lumber? but who sent the snakes in the first place? god. and is jesus a snake, the symbol of the devil? the imagery is too analagous to be coincidence, in my mind, but too wrong to actually make sense.
When you realize that the sins of the world were laid upon Him as He hung there on the cross, you might come to see that in God's eyes He died in the form of Satan the serpent.
Bronze stands for judgment. Bronze serpent stands for the judged serpent. Christ died as the sin bearer of the whole world. It is much like the "scape goat" that was sent into the wilderness bearing the iniquities of Israel.
First God established His hatred for sins in our minds by the Old Testament. Then He established His great love for man by causing His Son to bear those hated sins on the cross on our behalf.
are we saved from god, by the image of god? or are we saved from the snake, by an image of the snake? can you see how this can be a difficult point to get around?
That question is worth a new thread. Addressing it here will raise the off topic flag.
even as "just a snake" why could it not have deeper significance? certainly, there is still moral. and certainly there is still powerful imagery -- maybe even metaphor. but as literally something besides a snake, i don't see it.
I wonder if you can see that not just a man sinned, but the human race was plunged into sin.
I think that is where you begin. This story is a story of how our race got started and where it went wrong. These are far reaching and profound matters. I think you first have to have that kind of realization. This Genesis story is about why man DIES and why man's world is so corrupted and alienated from God.
The flow of history coming our of Genesis is a seemless continuation of the story. And this is a story of where the human race went wrong. In this context all the details must be considered as having more than trivial significance. At least it should be so with all the details that the writer chose to elaborate on at length. One of them being the serpent.
no, and this is why i object so strongly. the snake was NOT the cause of man's sin. nor was he the cause of woman's sin. to say so fundamentally betrays the meaning of the text. if it's only the snake's fault -- why punish adam eve? they were just innocent victims of the devil, after all.
All three parties had words of punishment announced concerning them. So it is not an either / or situation. Adam has his part and his responsibility, Eve has hers, and the serpent has his. Our task is to discern to what extent each was responsible. Please stop suggesting that to say the serpent was Satan is to obsolve anyone of moral responsibility. This is not the case.
Again I say, interpreting the serpent as Satan is NOT absolving man from moral responsibility.
Look at the judges of the world. When a complex case comes before them with multiple participants in wrong doing, that judge, if she or he is just and wise, knows just what to dispense to what parties in the right manner. So it is with the Judge of all the world, God.
when god punishes eve, it's because she's done something wrong. she was wrong to listen to the snake, instead of god. when god punishes adam, it's because he's done something wrong. he was wrong to listen to eve instead of god. genesis 3 tells us that no matter what we hear, and no matter how right it sounds, it is our duty to follow god and only god. and when we mess up, we can't get out of it by saying "the devil made me do it," because we are responsible for our own actions.
I said before that interpreting the serpent as Satan is not obsolving man from his moral failure. It is not the same as Flip Wilson's joke "Oh, the Devil made me do that!"
it's MAN'S fault that man fell from grace. not the devil's.
True. Now, God does pronounce ill concerning the serpent as well. Does He not?
That is all I am saying. I agree with you to a large part.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by arachnophilia, posted 03-22-2006 5:37 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by arachnophilia, posted 03-23-2006 12:04 AM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 259 of 302 (297504)
03-23-2006 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by arachnophilia
03-23-2006 12:04 AM


Re: Hung up on a supernatural snake ?
no. telling someone to disobey god is also a sin, isn't it? man is responsible for his own actions, but the snake is also responsible for his.
Yes, the serpent is held responsible for his actions. I think we have a non argument here. I never said that in Genesis the snake is punished for what Adam did or that Adam is punished for what the serpent did. On this point we seem to have a debate in search of a disagreement.
uh, no, he just says what i said. that the two are analogs.
Analogs? That escapes me at the moment. However, we will come to no agreement here now. And that is because Christ's illumination upon the Numbers passage of the bronze serpent, for my faith as a Chtristian, transcends any human opinion.
All we can do is recognize that there is a line here between us. For me the integrity of Christ's reference to any Scripture is beyond dispute, beyond debate from human opinion.
that raises another question. if christ is like the snake -- and worshipping the snake is idolatry...
Nice try. We are not to worship a man on a cross. We worship a resurrected Man who redeemed us and rose from the dead to impart His life into us.
To be fair, the Catholics do have many images of a man on a cross which I think arrives at idolotry. I think it is wrong to emphasize homage to an image of a man on a cross.
And I would add that man has a religious nature that often leads him astray. This nature did not cease with the coming of the Chrtistian faith. As Judaism suffered periods of decline and corruptions so also Christiandom has.
you will find me preaching from time to time -- remember jaywill, i did once in a conversation with you here, and i got a potm for it from an athiest. think about it for a second.
A second's up.
book, chapter, verse?
That's much too large of a sub topic to touch on without opening a new thread.
But I will say this. In the experience of the unbeliever in God's Son the serpent is quite uncrushed and active and lying and deceiving you still. But in the sphere and realm those learning to live in the realm and sphere of Christ's indwelling life " .. they who are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and its lusts" (Galatian 5:24)
This is the daily subjective crushing of the sin nature that I experience when I turn my being over to Christ Jesus. The victory of Christ over the serpent is applied by faith for a moment by moment deliverence from sin. Here again "But I say, Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh" (Gal. 5:16)
This is the crushing of the serpentine nature of sin by walking step by step in the Holy Spirit of the resurrected Christ. This too is learned and applied by faith. I am in the process of learning to apply Christ's victory over the serpent as are many thousands of others.
In our congregation in the church in Dunn Loring we experience a crushing of the serpent in that we are brought together in a genuine oneness that the world does not know - Chinese speaking, English speaking, Korean speaking, Abrabic speaking, and Spanish speaking - each week as we celebrate the Lord's table in a unity which this world does not know. This too is a crushing of the serpent's head based upon word of the Apostle - "Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you." (Romans 16:20)
So this crushing is applied by faith in those who obey the gospel. Remember what I wrote about the overcomers in Revelation 12? They overcame Satan because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul life unto death. This manchild is a corporate group of people who throughout the ages have subjectively applied Christ's victory in their daily lives. Like a little Gideon's army God will turn the age to the kingdom age soon and Christ will physically return to deliver Israel and arrest the globe from Satan's grip.
So this victory was accomplished by Christ on the cross. And this victory is then subjectively applied in the lives of the disciples of Christ by faith for the centries following His resurrection. At some point at the end of the age this victory will then be applied the the globe in Christ's second coming.
He delays this final stage to give the unrepentent like yourself time to repent and believe the gospel so that you would not be crushed along with Satan in his final execution.
You spoke eloquently before about man's responsibility. Today you and I are not responsible for Adam's fall. We are however responsible to repent of our sins and believe the gospel of Christ that we might not remain in Adam's fall.
whoa whoa whoa. back up. for someone debating me about how the snake is not "just a snake" you sure have missed a big one right here. the "scapegoat" is azazel -- a demon, or according to enoch head of the fallen angels. the goat goes off to be eaten by azazel, not to "escape."
I don't put the book of Enoch (if that is where you are getting this ) on the same level as the books of the Hebrew canon. The book of Enoch may be interesting reading. But I restrict my understanding of the significance of the scape goat to what the inspired Hebrew canon reveals. If you are getting this stuff from the Hebrew canon then you have to show me chapter and verse this time.
let's rephrase. because while your statement is technically correct, i suspect you're figuratively alluding to original sin,
Its a funny thing, but the term "original sin" which I see mentioned a lot is not a term I ever felt to use.
which is NOT correct. man was plunged into sin in the respect that man was removed from god -- and so every man afterwards sinned. but sin was evidently well within our capabality in the garden, too.
I suppose that you should make that argument to someone who speaks about "original sin."
I think I'll cut this response here.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-23-2006 07:37 AM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-23-2006 07:42 AM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-23-2006 08:00 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by arachnophilia, posted 03-23-2006 12:04 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by arachnophilia, posted 03-23-2006 6:20 PM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 264 of 302 (298014)
03-25-2006 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by arachnophilia
03-23-2006 6:20 PM


Re: bronze serpents and goat-eaters
that's a little paltry on the "interpretation" side. that's a comparison, a reference as you said. it doesn't tell us anything more than what i said: that christ on the cross is clearly analagous to the serpent on a stick in numbers.
Then again the Apostle Paul warned the disciples of those who were "always learning yet never able to come to the full knowedge of the truth." (2 Tim.3:7)
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-25-2006 07:48 AM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-25-2006 07:50 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by arachnophilia, posted 03-23-2006 6:20 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by arachnophilia, posted 03-25-2006 3:26 PM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 271 of 302 (298181)
03-25-2006 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by arachnophilia
03-25-2006 3:26 PM


Re: bronze serpents and goat-eaters
why don't you address my concerns about the comparison of christ to the serpent, instead of pretending that it's already been dealt with by a statement far less detailed than my question?
You're the one pretending to be interested in answers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by arachnophilia, posted 03-25-2006 3:26 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by arachnophilia, posted 03-25-2006 11:22 PM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 279 of 302 (298240)
03-26-2006 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by arachnophilia
03-25-2006 11:22 PM


Re: bronze serpents and goat-eaters
can't put that divinely imparted understanding into words to answer my questions?
At the moment, I'm less concerned with divinely imparted understanding than your ability to simply read English.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by arachnophilia, posted 03-25-2006 11:22 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by arachnophilia, posted 03-26-2006 4:01 PM jaywill has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 280 of 302 (298241)
03-26-2006 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
03-26-2006 12:16 AM


Re: My apologies if I sound harsh...
Mr. Ex Nihlo,
I think the criteria that some posters put here of "plain text" is a front. It simply a device to channel their supposed understanding in the direction where they want to go. Violations of the rule are permitted when it suits the same purpose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 03-26-2006 12:16 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 281 of 302 (298248)
03-26-2006 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
03-25-2006 11:53 PM


Re: My apologies if I sound harsh...
But, having admitted all this, I still have to stand strong on this one. What you guys are presenting as a 'plain text' reading does not capture the full range of Jewish thought in regards to the serpent in Genesis. It seems to focus on the earliest Talmudic writings, writings which do not mesh easilly with later Talmudic writings but have nontheless since been passed in some form into modern day Rabbinic Judaism (to the exclusion of all other possibilities I might add).
And there's a lot of other "Jewish" possibilities out there.
This does reinforce what I have been told. That is that Judaism from the first or second century AD has been structured around a denial of Jesus being the Messiah.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-26-2006 07:18 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 03-25-2006 11:53 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 282 of 302 (298255)
03-26-2006 7:45 AM


Purpledawn,
I would like to put this "plain text" philosophy of yours to the test.
Tell me please. After Adam sinned God came looking for him. Verse nine of chapter three says that God called out "Where are you?"
Why did God ask where Adam was?

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 Message 284 by purpledawn, posted 03-26-2006 9:39 AM jaywill has not replied

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