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Author Topic:   Intelligent Design explains many follies
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 106 of 302 (297062)
03-21-2006 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by John 10:10
03-21-2006 11:16 AM


Where does it stop?
then one still has to stop at where the matter came from in the first place
In fact one does NOT have to stop. There is considerable work going on to try to determine how things started. With ID (like all past religious explanations) we stop.
We stop at where the matter came from because the Intelligent Designer declares He has eternally existed.
Excuse me? The designer is a capitalized "He"? This is exactly what the whole ID movement exists to avoid. If the designer is God then it is an utterly non-scientific approach and doesn't belong in a science class. The ONLY reason that the ID movement exists is to get into the science class.

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 Message 104 by John 10:10, posted 03-21-2006 11:16 AM John 10:10 has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 107 of 302 (297070)
03-21-2006 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by John 10:10
03-21-2006 11:16 AM


Re: Of old cities
If one looks at why intracately complex matter exists from a non-ID viewpoint, then one still has to stop at where the matter came from in the first place that somehow deterministically changes/evolves over time into all manner of intracately complex structures.
The matter came about from the energy of the Big Bang. Where did the energy come from, I sense you're about to ask? it may not have come from anywhere because the net energy of the universe may be zero. If I have ten thousand dollars, and I owe you ten thousand dollars, technically I don't have any money at all. I can still use that ten thousand dollars I don't technically have to impress people with a big fat billfold, though.
The matter we observe in our portion of the universe may simply be balanced by an equal amount of antimatter somewhere else; if so the net matter/energy of the universe is zero, even though we look around and see a lot of matter.
How did all the smallest parts of organic and inorganic matter determine how they would be built into intracately complex atoms, compounds, and living structures?
They did not determine that themselves; the laws of physics determine how matter interacts and is organized.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by John 10:10, posted 03-21-2006 11:16 AM John 10:10 has not replied

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 108 of 302 (297092)
03-21-2006 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by John 10:10
03-21-2006 11:16 AM


Re: Of old cities
On this point I disagree completely. Reality tells us that intracately complex matter exists, both organic and inorganic. If one looks at why intracately complex matter exists from a non-ID viewpoint, then one still has to stop at where the matter came from in the first place that somehow deterministically changes/evolves over time into all manner of intracately complex structures.
which following the evolutionary frame work would come from simple matter, which is really abiogenesis but since id covers that more than it does evolution.
Some how you are thinking that there are only very complex systems when they came from simple systems - you still need to give your definition of complexity when you use it
he same is true for those of us who believe ID is the most plausible explanation behind all that exists. We stop at where the matter came from because the Intelligent Designer declares He has eternally existed.
this is why ID is and never will be considered science, if the designer is a god we can not test how he did it. if ID coniders god did it then it is religion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by John 10:10, posted 03-21-2006 11:16 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by John 10:10, posted 03-21-2006 4:38 PM ReverendDG has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 109 of 302 (297098)
03-21-2006 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by ramoss
03-21-2006 7:50 AM


Re: A slight correction
Fred Hoyle was not a biologiest though.
Agreed. However, if the mathematical model were adequate, then you should not need to be a biologist to be able to use it.
If you want to further discuss this subtopic, please take that to Criticizing neo-Darwinism. That way we can avoid going off-topic for an ID thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by ramoss, posted 03-21-2006 7:50 AM ramoss has not replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 110 of 302 (297102)
03-21-2006 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by ReverendDG
03-21-2006 2:57 PM


Re: Of old cities
(1) Ramoss wrote,
"Give me an experiment. Show me how ID will make a prediction about that experiment will fall out."
Those of us who know the Intelligent Designer do this every day through the power of prayer.
(2) NosyNed wrote,
"There is considerable work going on to try to determine how things started."
Let us all know when you/they have it all figured out and can prove it. Inquiring minds want to know.
"If the designer is God then it is an utterly non-scientific approach and doesn't belong in a science classroom."
Neither do the non-ID theories that cannot be completely proven. That's what ID is all about! The science classroom should be reserved only for those things that can be observed and completely proven.
(3) Crashfrog wrote,
"It (matter) may not have come from anywhere ........"
"The matter we observe in our portion of the universe may ........"
Let us all know when the "mays" become "facts."
"They did not determine that themselves; the laws of physics determine how matter interacts and is organized."
Who then determined the laws of nuclear physics that placed protons, neutrons, electrons, ect. in their unique atomic order, combined them into compound elements, and finally made some of them into organic living matter?
(4) ReverendDG wrote,
"This is why ID is and never will be considered science, if the designer is a god we can not test how he did it."
Same answer as (2).
This message has been edited by John 10:10, 03-21-2006 04:50 PM

The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by ReverendDG, posted 03-21-2006 2:57 PM ReverendDG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by nator, posted 03-21-2006 4:40 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 113 by ReverendDG, posted 03-21-2006 6:54 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 114 by ramoss, posted 03-21-2006 7:43 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 116 by nator, posted 03-21-2006 9:21 PM John 10:10 has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 111 of 302 (297103)
03-21-2006 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by John 10:10
03-21-2006 4:38 PM


maybe you missed my question to you?
Does DNA copy itself perfectly all the time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by John 10:10, posted 03-21-2006 4:38 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by John 10:10, posted 03-21-2006 4:53 PM nator has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 112 of 302 (297104)
03-21-2006 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by nator
03-21-2006 4:40 PM


Re: maybe you missed my question to you?
Maybe you missed my answer.
See post # 84.
see Message 84
This message has been edited by AdminJar, 03-21-2006 03:59 PM

The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by nator, posted 03-21-2006 4:40 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by nator, posted 03-21-2006 9:19 PM John 10:10 has not replied

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 113 of 302 (297127)
03-21-2006 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by John 10:10
03-21-2006 4:38 PM


Re: Of old cities
Those of us who know the Intelligent Designer do this every day through the power of prayer.
then it disqualifies itself just from that statement
Neither do the non-ID theories that cannot be completely proven. That's what ID is all about! The science classroom should be reserved only for those things that can be observed and completely proven.
if this is your answer, then you need to read more about what science does and the theories scientists produce, and no ID is a wedge to get religion in schools, it predicts or explains nothing. No theory as been proven, but due to evidence can explain things better than another, so what does ID explain?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by John 10:10, posted 03-21-2006 4:38 PM John 10:10 has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 114 of 302 (297132)
03-21-2006 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by John 10:10
03-21-2006 4:38 PM


Re: Of old cities
Those of us who know the Intelligent Designer do this every day through the power of prayer.
That is not an experiment. That can not be reproduced and mesured by everyone. That could very well be the placebo effect. Sorry, but that is not a test or measurement or an experiemnt.
Neither do the non-ID theories that cannot be completely proven. That's what ID is all about! The science classroom should be reserved only for those things that can be observed and completely proven.
You mean, things like evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by John 10:10, posted 03-21-2006 4:38 PM John 10:10 has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 115 of 302 (297144)
03-21-2006 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by John 10:10
03-21-2006 4:53 PM


Yep, I did miss your answer
One of the reasons I missed your answer was because you didn't reply to my post, but no matter. Thanks for pointing me to your response:
quote:
(4) No, DNA does not copy itself perfectly all the time. That's why there are imperfections as organisms reproduce.
Correction.
One of the reasons organisms are different than their parents (not "imperfect") is due to imperfect replication of DNA during reproduction.
quote:
To rest one's case on adaptation and imperfections as the reasons how organisms evolve is pure folly.
I do not understand what you mean when you use the word "imperfection" in this context.
It is not a scientific term, so could you please define it for me?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by John 10:10, posted 03-21-2006 4:53 PM John 10:10 has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 116 of 302 (297145)
03-21-2006 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by John 10:10
03-21-2006 4:38 PM


Re: Of old cities
quote:
The science classroom should be reserved only for those things that can be observed and completely proven.
Nobody has ever observed an electron.
They have only been inferred from indirect evidence.
Do you suggest that we should avoid taching children about electrons in science class?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by John 10:10, posted 03-21-2006 4:38 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by John 10:10, posted 03-22-2006 10:40 AM nator has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 117 of 302 (297274)
03-22-2006 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by nator
03-21-2006 9:21 PM


Re: Of old cities
(1) ReverendDG wrote,
"So what does ID explain?"
ID simply explains as a plausible reason why intracately complex design exists in mirco organic matter, micro inorganic matter, and in the macro universe at large.
Those who believe in ID cannot prove this any more than those who do not believe in ID can completely prove something other than ID is the cause behind our existance.
(2) Ramoss wrote,
"You mean, things like evolution."
Yes, evolution should not be taught in the science classroom because it can never be completely proven, as can other elements of scientific study such as nuclear physics, the laws of thermodynamics, electrical engineering, how creatures function and reproduce, how plants function and reproduce, etc.
The science classroom should stick to the study of how things that exist function, not to "theories" of how things came to exist.
(3) Schrafinator wrote,
"Please define it (imperfections) for me?"
Imperfections are simply mutations. Mutations rarely result in the betterment of the creature, let alone give a plausible explanation of how creatures can evolve from one creature to another to another to .........
"Do you suggest that we should avoid teaching children about electrons in science class?"
No, I do not!
Same answer as (2).

The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by nator, posted 03-21-2006 9:21 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by crashfrog, posted 03-22-2006 11:11 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 119 by nwr, posted 03-22-2006 11:41 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 120 by nator, posted 03-22-2006 1:02 PM John 10:10 has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 118 of 302 (297279)
03-22-2006 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by John 10:10
03-22-2006 10:40 AM


Re: Of old cities
Mutations rarely result in the betterment of the creature
Rarely? Or never?
That's two different things. If it's never, then you're right, mutation can't explain the development of one creature to another.
But if it's rarely, then selection gives nature a means to hand-pick the rarelys, with the end result that creatures are bettered by mutation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by John 10:10, posted 03-22-2006 10:40 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by John 10:10, posted 03-22-2006 3:36 PM crashfrog has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 119 of 302 (297291)
03-22-2006 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by John 10:10
03-22-2006 10:40 AM


Re: Of old cities
ID simply explains as a plausible reason why intracately complex design exists in mirco organic matter, micro inorganic matter, and in the macro universe at large.
Maybe it gives you a "feel good" reason. But it doesn't actually explain anything.
Yes, evolution should not be taught in the science classroom because it can never be completely proven, as can other elements of scientific study such as nuclear physics, the laws of thermodynamics, electrical engineering, how creatures function and reproduce, how plants function and reproduce, etc.
Sorry to bring you the bad news, but those "other elements of scientific study" cannot be completely proved either. Thats the nature of science.
The science classroom should stick to the study of how things that exist function, not to "theories" of how things came to exist.
The Theory of Evolution is, primarily, a theory of how species that exist continue to function and to deal with change.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by John 10:10, posted 03-22-2006 10:40 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by John 10:10, posted 03-22-2006 3:44 PM nwr has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 120 of 302 (297311)
03-22-2006 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by John 10:10
03-22-2006 10:40 AM


Re: Of old cities
quote:
Imperfections are simply mutations.
Oh, ok.
Why didn't you just say that in the first place?
Using loaded terminology such as you were doing is not helpful, as the judgement of if something is "perfect" or not is entirely subjective, wouldn't you agree?
For example, a mutation that confers a benefit to reproductive success could be said to be more "perfect" than a gene which is neutral with regards to reproductive success, wouldn't you say?
quote:
Mutations rarely result in the betterment of the creature,
But they sometimes do, right?
quote:
let alone give a plausible explanation of how creatures can evolve from one creature to another to another to .........
More creatures are born than survive to reproduce.
All creatures have mutations which make them slightly different from each other in various ways.
All organisms live in a particular environment.
The individuals in a population which, due to mutation among other factors, tend to reproduce more numerous offspring get to pass on those genes to future generations more than those individuals who are not as successful at reproducing.
"Do you suggest that we should avoid teaching children about electrons in science class?"
quote:
No, I do not!
But didn't you say that we shouldn't teach things in science class that are not directly observed?
Electrons have never been directly observed, so if we follow your advice, we shouldn't teach about electrons in science class.
quote:
Yes, evolution should not be taught in the science classroom because it can never be completely proven, as can other elements of scientific study such as nuclear physics, the laws of thermodynamics, electrical engineering, how creatures function and reproduce, how plants function and reproduce, etc.
Actually, nothing in science can ever be completely proven.
Do you think we should teach about genetics in science class? What about population genetics?
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-22-2006 01:05 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by John 10:10, posted 03-22-2006 10:40 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by John 10:10, posted 03-22-2006 4:05 PM nator has not replied

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