Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Time, a brief history
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 62 (297282)
03-22-2006 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by sinamatic
03-22-2006 3:11 AM


Getting even mor confused.
I can accept that reactions could continue to happen forever in the future but not that reactions happened forever in the past.
What does that have to do with anything. First, it is an argument fron incredulity. There are lots of things that are unbelievable, but that how it is. And it's very likely that things didn't happen forever in the past.
So I still don't have a clue what it is you are trying to say?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by sinamatic, posted 03-22-2006 3:11 AM sinamatic has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 62 (297310)
03-22-2006 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by sinamatic
03-22-2006 2:58 AM


Time to discuss theories
This is getting rather interesting! I always thought that the idea that we are a planet in a galaxy of a hundred billion stars....and that the cosmologists tell us that there is a hundred billion other galaxies is a testimony both to the sheer scope of the universe and also to the idea that we on our dustspeck can be the source of all wisdom.
Or are we the source of our wisdom? But thats for another topic!
brokenpride writes:
Supposing BB is true still doesn't solve my problem with history
I can see what you say concerning infinity. It is possible, although boggling, to comprehend a universe so large as a hundred billion galaxies. It is far more difficult to comprehend a universe of an infinite number of galaxies...indeed impossible.
Similarly, it is impossible to have a comprehension of an infinite past. The origin occurred somewhere! I like your analogy of a building with no ground floor!
jar writes:
But we can build theories that are the best available explanation, and the Big Bang has stood up to many, many challenges. It's certainly one of the better supported theories.
The Big Bang seemingly addresses the distribution of matter throughout the universe. One question is whether or not God created the initial matter that was present "in the beginning." That is a faith issue, and in that regards, I am a creationist. As one Pastor put it, what came first? God or dirt?

Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by sinamatic, posted 03-22-2006 2:58 AM sinamatic has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 03-22-2006 1:18 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 62 (297317)
03-22-2006 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
03-22-2006 12:52 PM


Re: Time to discuss theories
As one Pastor put it, what came first? God or dirt?
Who cares and what does that have to do with the thread?
A belief in GOD is fine, no one objects to your belief, but it has no place in Science or in the study of the Big Bang, time, the universe or any other such endeavor.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 03-22-2006 12:52 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by sinamatic, posted 03-22-2006 5:51 PM jar has replied

  
sinamatic
Member (Idle past 4144 days)
Posts: 67
From: Traverse City, MI usa
Joined: 03-10-2006


Message 19 of 62 (297391)
03-22-2006 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
03-22-2006 1:18 PM


Re: Time to discuss theories
jar writes:
A belief in GOD is fine, no one objects to your belief, but it has no place in Science or in the study of the Big Bang, time, the universe or any other such endeavor.
well I referenced my belief because this forum is:
Big Bang and Cosmology
Did the universe begin as a vastly dense singularity billions of years ago, or with God's immortal words just some thousands of years ago? How do Creationism and science explain the universe we see today?
I don't understand why you think God cannot be discussed in a forum with a question of God as it's description. I merely stated the evidence from science as I interpret it and Evidence from the Bible as I interpret it. I only talked about God because I believe the universe must have been created by a higher being not bound by the laws of physics...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 03-22-2006 1:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 03-22-2006 6:01 PM sinamatic has replied
 Message 21 by Son Goku, posted 03-22-2006 6:06 PM sinamatic has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 62 (297396)
03-22-2006 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by sinamatic
03-22-2006 5:51 PM


Re: Time to discuss theories
I don't understand why you think God cannot be discussed in a forum with a question of God as it's description. I merely stated the evidence from science as I interpret it and Evidence from the Bible as I interpret it. I only talked about God because I believe the universe must have been created by a higher being not bound by the laws of physics...
Fine. We know that is your belief. But we are also on the Science side where you are expected to provide some evidence to support your assertions.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by sinamatic, posted 03-22-2006 5:51 PM sinamatic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by sinamatic, posted 03-22-2006 6:41 PM jar has not replied

  
Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 62 (297399)
03-22-2006 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by sinamatic
03-22-2006 5:51 PM


Re: Time to discuss theories
The theory is that history is a truth that has already happened and has to have a beginning because of it's nature.
One anti-intuitive aspect to nature we've learned from General Relativity is that time and space are entirely relative.
What one observer calls space, another will call time and vice-versa.
What some would call before, others will call after, e.t.c.
Time is simply a path in spacetime.
However near the Big Bang classical spacetime itself starts to give over to something else entirely. Concepts like before and after break down entirely.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by sinamatic, posted 03-22-2006 5:51 PM sinamatic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by sinamatic, posted 03-22-2006 6:57 PM Son Goku has not replied

  
sinamatic
Member (Idle past 4144 days)
Posts: 67
From: Traverse City, MI usa
Joined: 03-10-2006


Message 22 of 62 (297407)
03-22-2006 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
03-22-2006 6:01 PM


Re: Time to discuss theories
Fine. We know that is your belief. But we are also on the Science side where you are expected to provide some evidence to support your assertions.
I believe I have

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 03-22-2006 6:01 PM jar has not replied

  
sinamatic
Member (Idle past 4144 days)
Posts: 67
From: Traverse City, MI usa
Joined: 03-10-2006


Message 23 of 62 (297411)
03-22-2006 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Son Goku
03-22-2006 6:06 PM


Re: Time to discuss theories
son Goku writes:
One anti-intuitive aspect to nature we've learned from General Relativity is that time and space are entirely relative.
What one observer calls space, another will call time and vice-versa.
What some would call before, others will call after, e.t.c.
Time is simply a path in spacetime.
However near the Big Bang classical spacetime itself starts to give over to something else entirely. Concepts like before and after break down entirely.
I disagree. Space and time are two totally different things. The reason many call this idea space-time, is because they cannot explain it. You can measure the distance between two moving forms of matter. That is space. Measuring how long that matter took to reach that distance is time. Different but indeed relative.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Son Goku, posted 03-22-2006 6:06 PM Son Goku has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by NosyNed, posted 03-22-2006 7:04 PM sinamatic has replied
 Message 35 by sidelined, posted 03-24-2006 2:23 AM sinamatic has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 24 of 62 (297413)
03-22-2006 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by sinamatic
03-22-2006 6:57 PM


Your opinion doesn't trump the evidence
I disagree. Space and time are two totally different things.
Unfortunately, your opinion doesn't count for jack squat. Einstein formulated a description where space and time are aspects of one thing. The predictions of his threories have been found to be highly accurate in very many, very careful tests. Spacetime does behave as the relativity equations predict.
You are quite simply utterly wrong about the fundamental nature of the universe that you live in.
This is, of course, completley understandable. A major outcome of what we learned through the 20th century is that the real nature of our universe is very, very counter to our intuition and daily experiences so of course we find it mind-boggling to try to consider the truth of the matter.
A boggled mind is, however, not to be relied on for this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by sinamatic, posted 03-22-2006 6:57 PM sinamatic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by sinamatic, posted 03-22-2006 7:23 PM NosyNed has replied

  
sinamatic
Member (Idle past 4144 days)
Posts: 67
From: Traverse City, MI usa
Joined: 03-10-2006


Message 25 of 62 (297416)
03-22-2006 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by NosyNed
03-22-2006 7:04 PM


Re: Your opinion doesn't trump the evidence
nosy writes:
Unfortunately, your opinion doesn't count for jack squat. Einstein formulated a description where space and time are aspects of one thing. The predictions of his threories have been found to be highly accurate in very many, very careful tests. Spacetime does behave as the relativity equations predict.
You are quite simply utterly wrong about the fundamental nature of the universe that you live in.
This is, of course, completley understandable. A major outcome of what we learned through the 20th century is that the real nature of our universe is very, very counter to our intuition and daily experiences so of course we find it mind-boggling to try to consider the truth of the matter.
A boggled mind is, however, not to be relied on for this.
I am not relying on time or space or spacetime to back my idea. I am simply saying that change does not come from no change when it comes to matter. How can I say this?; we have never seen any evidence to think otherwise. That is not that mind-boggling to comprehend. It is you who have no comprehension of the universe you live in. It is believing the truth of the matter, or shall I say truth of matter, that makes it so simple.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by NosyNed, posted 03-22-2006 7:04 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by NosyNed, posted 03-22-2006 8:15 PM sinamatic has replied
 Message 29 by AdminPhat, posted 03-23-2006 9:03 AM sinamatic has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 26 of 62 (297437)
03-22-2006 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by sinamatic
03-22-2006 7:23 PM


Re: Your opinion doesn't trump the evidence
Please read slowly and carefully.
The post of mine that you replied to was NOT talking about matter and engergy. It was talking about your ideas about space and time. Your post in msg 25 looks like you didn't read my post 24 at all.
Could you try again?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by sinamatic, posted 03-22-2006 7:23 PM sinamatic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by sinamatic, posted 03-23-2006 1:56 AM NosyNed has replied

  
sinamatic
Member (Idle past 4144 days)
Posts: 67
From: Traverse City, MI usa
Joined: 03-10-2006


Message 27 of 62 (297480)
03-23-2006 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by NosyNed
03-22-2006 8:15 PM


Re: Your opinion doesn't trump the evidence
How bout you try again and give me evidence of why I am wrong instead of just saying so because of what Einstein said...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by NosyNed, posted 03-22-2006 8:15 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by NosyNed, posted 03-23-2006 7:28 AM sinamatic has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 28 of 62 (297503)
03-23-2006 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by sinamatic
03-23-2006 1:56 AM


Evidence of error
The accuracy of GPS satillites.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by sinamatic, posted 03-23-2006 1:56 AM sinamatic has not replied

  
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 62 (297515)
03-23-2006 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by sinamatic
03-22-2006 7:23 PM


Re: Your opinion doesn't trump the evidence
brokenpride writes:
It is you who have no comprehension of the universe you live in. It is believing the truth of the matter, or shall I say truth of matter, that makes it so simple.
Easy, buddy! I promoted your topic into a science thread even though I knew that you are a faith believer....but I want you to focus on discussing these issues scientifically and not attack the other person! Lets be nice to each other!


GOT QUESTIONS? You may click these links for some feedback:
  • General discussion of moderation procedures
  • Thread Reopen Requests
  • Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
  • Forum Guidelines
    ***************************************
    New Members: to get an understanding of what makes great posts, check out:
  • "Post of the Month" Forum
    "DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU"
    AdminPhat

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 25 by sinamatic, posted 03-22-2006 7:23 PM sinamatic has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 30 by sinamatic, posted 03-23-2006 12:53 PM AdminPhat has not replied

      
    sinamatic
    Member (Idle past 4144 days)
    Posts: 67
    From: Traverse City, MI usa
    Joined: 03-10-2006


    Message 30 of 62 (297581)
    03-23-2006 12:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 29 by AdminPhat
    03-23-2006 9:03 AM


    Re: Your opinion doesn't trump the evidence
    Space-time was thought-up to make equations work. The idea of space-time being stretched is because the speed of light had complications. For example, Lets say you have two stars, one moving through space towards us and the other moving away us) . Light is immited from them. Is the light from the star moving towards us faster than the light from the star moving away? Gravitational pull is a phenomenon that couldn't be explained so space-time was presented. However, I am simply saying that matter affects matter in observation. If space-time is the reason for this observation, it does not make the observation obsolete. Anyway you look at it change yields change. If you want to explain the universe with mathamatics, it doesn't take long to realize that some things don't add up.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 29 by AdminPhat, posted 03-23-2006 9:03 AM AdminPhat has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 31 by Phat, posted 03-23-2006 4:21 PM sinamatic has replied
     Message 32 by nwr, posted 03-23-2006 9:25 PM sinamatic has not replied
     Message 46 by Son Goku, posted 03-26-2006 6:13 PM sinamatic has replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024