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Author | Topic: The Serpent of Genesis is not the Dragon of Revelations | |||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:This thread isn't about justifying whether one should employ a plain text reading of the A&E story. This thread is about looking at the plain text reading. Do you feel that other interpretations override the plain text? This message has been edited by purpledawn, 03-23-2006 05:57 AM "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:This was not an argument for my opinion on the snake in Genesis. I've also pointed out that Judaism's definition concerning the plain text reading just happens to have the definition that describes how I read the Bible. That is my reason for presenting that definition to you and what the Talmud stated. Again, this is not the focus of the thread, so let it go. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Yes there were many outside influences on the early Hebrew religion. The serpent in Genesis could have easily been modeled after the Egyptian God Set, who supposedly took the serpent form of Aphophis the enemy of Re (the sun God). If I have missed where you have presented outside influence as an argument for the snake in Genesis being Satan (enemy of God), please direct me to that post. If snakes are believed to have mystical powers or to symbolize mystical powers, does that automatically make them Satan (enemy of God)? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I don't see that meaning in the words I see used in the Bible for dragon. You need to be more specific as to what word, which language you are talking about, etc. quote:Not sure where you get unique one and why do you ask me? Make your argument. quote:Your statements on what? No you haven't connected any dots for me, you just complained about my wanting to look at the plain text. Make your case for Satan (enemy of God) as the snake in the Garden. If you have already, refer me back to the post. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
It is interesting the way jaywill uses a partial sentence and makes it appear that even Paul frowned upon people who understand the literary basics of the writings.
jaywill writes: Then again the Apostle Paul warned the disciples of those who were "always learning yet never able to come to the full knowedge of the truth." (2 Tim.3:7) When in reality, that wasn't what Paul was talking about at all.
2 Timothy 3 1 But know this: difficult times will come in the last days. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, without love for what is good, 4 traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to the form of religion but denying its power. Avoid these people! 6 For among them are those who worm their way into households and capture idle women burdened down with sins, led along by a variety of passions, 7 always learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. As much as that technique is used to today, I'm surprised that people don't realize that it is not a new technique. The comment concerning the snake on a stick in John for example gives a good visual since the audience was probably familiar with it, but doesn't change the original story. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Please show or refer to where we have specifically done this and present what we have ignored and how that applies to the OP. All I see you saying is that we are ignoring various things. Show where, don't just say it. quote:Where have I actually said that? My OP: IMO, the plain text reading does not support that the serpent of Genesis is the same as the serpent/dragon in the vision of Revelation. and: Just because a dragon/serpent is used to symbolize Satan in John’s vision, doesn’t make the serpent/snake in the Garden, Satan. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
When I ask you to refer me back to where I have made statements, I'd appreciate it if you would provide the link, so that I can refer back to the post itself.
Mr.Ex writes: The conclusion of the OP is this:
purpledawn writes:
Sometimes a snake is just a snake. Did you notice the very first word in that statement? The point being that every usage of the word serpent or snake in the Bible isn't necessarily referring to Satan (enemy of God). Again, in an OP we don't present our full argument. If you feel that the serpent/dragon in John's vision makes the snake in the Garden, Satan (enemy of God), then make the connection. I think Ringo said it correctly in Message 274: My purple friend can correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole point of the thread seems to be to avoid the extraneous externals. I also agree with what Ringo said in Message 277. You seem to be confusing "plain text" reading with literal. Remember the definition I gave you in Message 239: The understanding of scripture in its natural, normal sense using the customary meanings of the word’s being used, literary style, historical and cultural setting, and context. Notice that literary style is taken into account. There are different literary styles within the Bible. Fable: 1. a fictitious story meant to teach a moral lesson: the characters are usually talking animals. 2. a myth or legend Myth: a traditional story of unknown authorship, serving usually to explain some phenomenon of nature, the origin of man, or the customs, religious rites, etc. of a people Legend: a story handed down for generations and popoularly believed to have a historical basis If you've read any Jewish teachings, you will see that they tend to draw upon their legends and they call them legends.
quote:What do you mean by believe in? Each culture has their creation story. Are they all right or do you consider them to be myths? quote:I don't think I ever stated that the serpent in Genesis was not the "villain" of the story, but that doesn't make the snake Satan (enemy of God) My opinion is that the plain text reading does not support that the serpent of Genesis is the same as the serpent/dragon in the vision of Revelation. Just because a dragon/serpent is used to symbolize Satan in John’s vision, doesn’t make the serpent/snake in the Garden, Satan. I'm quite aware of the symbolism that surrounds snakes and other animals. Snakes have been used to symbolize fertility, wisdom, immortality, creation, the underworld, evil, etc.
quote:I look forward to reading your findings. quote:My assumption is that you don't like the position I'm taking, not me, especially since we are debating the position not me. You don't actually know me to dislike me. I didn't doubt my faith then and I don't doubt it now. The situation with my father lead me to study the Bible more intensely. What I have now is a better understanding and deeper inner peace. IOW, trying to get me to feel bad about looking at the plain text isn't going to work. This message has been edited by purpledawn, 03-26-2006 08:48 AM "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Because they were hiding. Not sure how this is a test of the "plain text" reading. Since this question is off topic, please don't assume that I don't know the commentaries and lessons that have elaborate reasons as to why God asked.
God asked this question of Adam so that he would have an opportunity to confess his sin and repent before God spoke again and pronounced punishment. It is rather an upbraiding question, in order to his conviction and humiliation: Where art thou? Not, In what place? but, In what condition? ETC Commentaries and lessons aren't necessarily based on the plain sense reading of the text. Please don't continue with this line of questioning. We're getting close to the limit of this thread and your question doesn't deal with the topic. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Please tell me you understand the difference between providing links to pertinent posts within the same thread concerning the topic and providing links to explain my personal view of the Bible which covered various threads and was off topic. If you were paying attention in this thread, you should have your answer now as to what I mean by understanding the reality of the Bible. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3457 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Well this thread is drawing to a close. Good time to start winding down.
Unfortunately most of this thread was wasted complaining about looking at the plain text and no real discussion took place concerning the plain text or plain sense reading of serpent in the Genesis story. In Message 170 I summarized the closest comments I've had concerning the plain text reading from the opposition. If I've missed any, please provide a link. In Genesis the serpent is a beast of the field created by God and cursed by God. Even though presented as the villain of the story, the text doesn't support that the snake is Satan (enemy of God). "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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