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Author Topic:   Bible Cryptids/Dinosaurs?
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 106 of 202 (297907)
03-24-2006 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by LudoRephaim
03-24-2006 6:33 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
LudoRephaim writes:
When figurative language is used, how do you tell if it is reffering to an actual beast or a myth?
"It's snorting shakes the Heavens! It's tail does cut the Gods! When it roars, even RA does tremble!"
Maybe I'll get an answer if I ask again: How do you decide what is figurative and what is not? If the fire-breathing is figurative, why must every other feature be shoehorned into a real animal?
Look what God said to Job: Can you catch him like a fish? Can you harpoon him like a whale? Can you harness him like an ox?
It's clearly a series of comparisons to known powerful beasts.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-24-2006 6:33 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-24-2006 7:07 PM ringo has replied
 Message 108 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-24-2006 7:12 PM ringo has replied
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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 107 of 202 (297915)
03-24-2006 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by ringo
03-24-2006 6:49 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
Whats' figurative and what's not?
"Can you fill his skin with Harpoons or his head with fishing spears?" Job 41:7.
THis is asking if Job can kill a Leviathan with fishing spears or harpoons. Nothing seems ta be figurative here.
"I will not keep silence concerning his limbs, or his mighty strength, or his googly frame." JOb 41:12.
I know al lot of animal species that have powerful limbs, great strength, and huge size (Grizzly Bear, Gorilla, Crocodiles for example)Nothing seems to be figurative here.
"Who can open the doors of his face?.."
"Doors" seems to be good figurative language for "Jaws". I dont think that the ancients, when describing a mythical beast, would say it had literal DOORS on it's face in order to impose terror. This is poetry, and poetry is powerful and can be figurative. Solomon calls his beloved a "Dove" in Song of Solomon 6:9. Dont think he means that his beloved is literally a dove (Song of Solomon 7:6-8)
"His back has rows of shields, shut up closely as with a seal" Job 41:15.
"shields" sounds to me a lot like scales. You can figuratively call the tough scales on a Croc's back "shields" Figurative language.
"His breath kindles coals, and a flame comes forth from his mouth." Job 41:21.
Seems to me like a hiss that a Croc would make when ticked off. Have you heared of "letting off steam?
"When she rouses herself to flee, she laughs at the Horse and his rider"
If you look at the context (Job 39:13-18) this is talking about an ostritch. But that cant be right! No Ostritch laughs! MUST BE MYTHICAL!!!
Probably using poetic language here, since this book is poetry.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by ringo, posted 03-24-2006 6:49 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 03-24-2006 7:18 PM LudoRephaim has replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 108 of 202 (297919)
03-24-2006 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by ringo
03-24-2006 6:49 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
Since "fire" has been shown to be something else, then nothing in this verse really does show this "Leviathan" to be anything more than a normal animal. Other passages in the Bible about Leviathan are monsters of the supernatural or other creatures. This one though seems nothing more than a huge reptile. Croc.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by ringo, posted 03-24-2006 6:49 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 03-24-2006 7:22 PM LudoRephaim has not replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 109 of 202 (297922)
03-24-2006 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by ringo
03-24-2006 6:49 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
Another way you can tell if something is a mythical monster or not is to see what it can do. If it "Frightens the Gods" that sounds to me something like a supernatural beast (as I hinted in the post you replied to)
If "fire" is shown to be figurative for a roar or hiss, and if the rest of the text doesn't show anything mythical, then the animal is most likely not mythical.
BTW: when one sees that "Fire" isn't fire, and when one knows the figurative poetical language of the text, then the Nile Croc fits the bill ("Dinosaurs and the Bible" pages 37-38)
This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 03-24-2006 07:17 PM

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 110 of 202 (297923)
03-24-2006 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by LudoRephaim
03-24-2006 7:07 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
Maybe the third time's the charm: How do you tell what's figurative and what's not?
You've given a lot of examples of figurative language in Job. Now give us an example of what is not figurative in the description of Leviathan.
Then tell us how you decided that one item is figurative and the other is not.
Then tell us why you decided that Job 41 is a figurative description of a non-figurative beast.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-24-2006 7:07 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-25-2006 1:17 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 111 of 202 (297924)
03-24-2006 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by LudoRephaim
03-24-2006 7:12 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
LudoRephaim writes:
Since "fire" has been shown to be something else....
Where has that been shown?

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 112 of 202 (297980)
03-24-2006 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by LudoRephaim
03-24-2006 6:11 PM


Re: on the other hand....
As for your "snake" comment:
There is a tale of a talking Donkey in Numbers 22:22-35. In this passage, the Donkey is given the ability to talk by God himself. This animal is not a supernautral spirit, just an animal that was divinly gifted with human speech
that's what i said!
(wonder if he knew Shrek....)
heh, good one.
The Serpent could no doubt have been supernaturally gifted with speech, though it was not likely from God (i'm thinking Satan possibly)This is not to be a scienftific discussion when dealing with the talking serpent. Just a theological one. But you are right that the serpent is seen as nothing more than a snake in the text.
one pseudepgiraphical work agrees with that position, that satan grants the snake the ability to speak. see the other thread (serpent in genesis and revelation) for more.


This message is a reply to:
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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 113 of 202 (297987)
03-25-2006 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by ringo
03-24-2006 7:18 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
In Poetry (such as Job) there are certain things you can employ:
Metaphor:
His bones are tubes of bronze.
Simile:
It's limbs like bars of iron
symbolism or metonymy can explain "fire" here. Metaphor can explain "doors" and "shields"
It's late. later

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by ringo, posted 03-24-2006 7:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by ringo, posted 03-25-2006 9:33 AM LudoRephaim has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 114 of 202 (298027)
03-25-2006 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by LudoRephaim
03-25-2006 1:17 AM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
LudoRephaim writes:
symbolism or metonymy can explain "fire" here. Metaphor can explain "doors" and "shields"
Exactly. Now where's the part that isn't figurative?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-25-2006 1:17 AM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-25-2006 10:42 PM ringo has replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 115 of 202 (298164)
03-25-2006 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by ringo
03-25-2006 9:33 AM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
Ringo writes:
Exactly. Now where's the part that isn't figurative?
I dont know exactly what you are trying to say, but I think you are asking how we know that the whole book of Job is allegorical or not. THe Book of Job is narrative and poetry. The area where God is talking to Job about the animals (Job 39-41) is wonderful poetry. Now when it comes to normal poetry, the kind that isn't telling a story, then the poem can mean almost anything. But this poem is a narrative, and the story is meant to be taken as a true story despite the fanciful language. Job is not allegorical for Israel or David or the Earth. He is a real man in this story. And in the Behemoth/Leviathan part of Job, God is literally talking to Job about two very powerful beasts and describing them in poetic language. God is saying to Job "if you cannot take on these two powerful beasts, how can you take on me?"
No there are many parts of Job that are NOT figurative. But as I have been hinting to you with my posts, in poetry, figurative language (metaphor, simele, Euphemism, etc) can be noticed quite easily if you know what they are and how to spot them. The "fire" of Leviathan could be metaphorical of it's hiss (as my source I posted mentioned. Did you read it?)Why would the author describe the Croc's hiss as "fire"? Why would one describe a woman's breasts as twin fawns of a Gazelle (Song of Solomon 7:3)? Really dont know, but if you know what poetry is, and when you know that Job is both prose and poetry, and when you know what is metaphor, what is simele, and what is NOT, you can pretty much find out what is being figurative and what is not. Behemoths bones "His bones" are literally "bones" and when they are said to be "tubes of Bronze" that's a metaphor. Usually when you see something normal (bones)compared to something that it is not (bronze), the comparison is describing a feature of that particular thing (bones compared with bronze=strong bones). On a cold morning, a Croc's nose might seem to be emitting "smoke" to an untrained person or ancient Hebrew (41:20)We can still see this today on a cold morning if we can see a Croc, but the "smoke" is not real "smoke" but it's breath, in science terms "carbon Dioxide". Taking that, and the fact that JOb and and the ancient world was ignorant of modern science and understanding, then the Croc's breath might seem to be "smoke" and where there is smoke....
I tried to explain this as good as possible. Arachnophilia made similar suggestions about Behemoth's tail (tail stiffens likea cedar...Phallus)I dont know if I can explain it better, and if I cant, then you either need to talk to Arach, or study up on poetry.
This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 03-25-2006 10:45 PM
This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 03-25-2006 10:46 PM

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by ringo, posted 03-25-2006 9:33 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by ringo, posted 03-25-2006 11:49 PM LudoRephaim has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 116 of 202 (298194)
03-25-2006 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by LudoRephaim
03-25-2006 10:42 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
LudoRephaim writes:
... I think you are asking how we know that the whole book of Job is allegorical or not.
No. I am asking you specifically why you think Leviathan was a real animal.
... this poem is a narrative, and the story is meant to be taken as a true story despite the fanciful language.
I am asking you why you think it's a historical narrative when so much of it is fanciful. All you've done so far is assert that it is. Why do you think it is? Never mind "it's easy to tell". How do you tell?
... as I have been hinting to you with my posts....
Stop hinting. Come right out and say something.
Why would the author describe the Croc's hiss as "fire"?
That's just the point: the author didn't describe "the croc's hiss" - he described fire. Most of the description of Leviathan does not fit a crocodile.
I don't need you to lecture me on figures of speech.
I am trying to get you to tell us why you think the Leviathan in Job was a literal animal. What difference would it make to the story if it was a real animal?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-25-2006 10:42 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-26-2006 12:12 AM ringo has replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 117 of 202 (298201)
03-26-2006 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by ringo
03-25-2006 11:49 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
Finally, I know what you are asking.
Although the Book of Job does not have to be historical to prove a point, it is presented as a story, and given the other fanciful accounts in the Bible (talking Donkey hehe) I dont see anything in it that shows this book to be a theological fiction, that's my view.
In my "Hebrew poetry and Wisdom class" we learned that this book is Historical narrative just like Genesis and Joshua, yet with apoetic spin. Indeed, not all of Job is poetical narrative. The first 2 chapters read as a narrative, without almost no (if any) poetical language. Job 42:7-17 are likewise just plain narrative. Some of the poetic discourses between Job and his freinds, according to my Professor during this class, was not unusual for semetic peoples, probably referring to the times that the events in Job are believed to have taken place (2000 BC). He didn't cite a source though.
Ringo writes:
That's just the point. The Author didn't describe "the Croc's hiss"-he dscribed fire.
What is the "smoke" that comes out of Leviathan's nostrils (41:20)? If you see a Croc on a cold morning it's breath looks like smoke, and to the ignorant ancient, it might have been seen as Smoke.
You have to remember that the ancients who wrote the Books of the Bible where not zoologists or scientists with modern day knowledge. For example, the Ostritch is seen as cruel in Job, often leaving her eggs out to warm, exposing them to being crushed by a wild animal, and is said to be cruel to her young (Job 39:13-18) Yet what seemed like cruel behavior to the ancients turned out to be not so cruel at all! The Ostritch leaves her eggs out to warm, and seemingly doesn't care if an animal steps on them. But she doesn;t need to worry: Ostritch eggs are very, very hard to break, let alone crushed (IVP Bible Background Commentary: Old testament. Page 510) The Ostritch will run from a predator to draw them away from their young, but to the ancients it seemed like it was running away and left their young to fend for themselves against a predator (see same book and page)
See my point? The Ostritch is being described the way the Hebrews saw them (observation) and the ancient hebrws and other ancients, without modern knowledge of ostritch habits, would have thought the same thing. The Ostritch isn't "cruel" any more than the "Leviathan" breathes fire. It's just the way the ancients saw them.
This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 03-26-2006 12:12 AM

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by ringo, posted 03-25-2006 11:49 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by ringo, posted 03-26-2006 12:26 AM LudoRephaim has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 118 of 202 (298207)
03-26-2006 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by LudoRephaim
03-26-2006 12:12 AM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
LudoRephaim writes:
What is the "smoke" that comes out of Leviathan's nostrils (41:20)?
Where there's smoke there's fire:
quote:
Job 41:19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
Job 41:20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
Job 41:21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
Why do you dwell on the smoke and conveniently ignore the rest of the description? Your crocodile is just not plausible.
I'm still trying to get at how you cherry-pick what is literal. So far, it seems that you pick whatever fits your chosen crocodile and handwave the rest away.
So far, it seems that your only answer is, "My professor said so." Is that your final answer?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-26-2006 12:12 AM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-26-2006 10:09 PM ringo has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 119 of 202 (298284)
03-26-2006 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by LudoRephaim
03-24-2006 6:11 PM


Re: on the other hand....
There is a tale of a talking Donkey in Numbers 22:22-35. In this passage, the Donkey is given the ability to talk by God himself. This animal is not a supernautral spirit, just an animal that was divinly gifted with human speech
So, you are saying that it wasn't a donkey that was talking, it was just God talking out of his ass???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-24-2006 6:11 PM LudoRephaim has not replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5083 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 120 of 202 (298446)
03-26-2006 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by ringo
03-26-2006 12:26 AM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
Cherry pick?
"his back is made of rows of shields" 41:15
Compare with
"Out of his mouth go flaming torches" 41:19
Anybody with a brain can see that "shields" is figurative of "scales". It has similar language as 41:19 with "fire" Both of these are definitely nOT meant to be taken literally. I thought that you could see that.
You ignore my wikipedia post which said that Horses in the ancient past where said to snort flames, as well as "dinosaurs and the Bible" which shows that the Croc does fit.
I have posted sources. Arachnophilia has too. Crashfrog as well. You only posted the King James Bible, which is not the best translation. I would LOVE to see you quote far more sources than you have.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by ringo, posted 03-26-2006 12:26 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by ringo, posted 03-26-2006 10:52 PM LudoRephaim has replied

  
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