The TRUE reason for the EvC controversy, and why it can not be resolved.

That was not what I was talking about. This is it:You said: I said: Now, as you can see, I have not made any personal comments about you.Asgara responded to that, as follows: This I object to.Apparently what you are interested in is running off people who disagree with you.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 03-25-2006 10:15 PM

HE didn't fall! WE did! For pete's sake!

But that would be a failure on God's part. We are exactly as He intended us to be - not "fallen".God is not at odds with His creation. The creationists' failure to understand that fact is the TRUE reason for the EvC controversy.

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LOLLook, take it to the proper thread.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I don't care about the thread. I want to know what the hell is going on here. If you people want me out, then cut me off.I really don't give a damn.But I will give you my philosophy right now. And you can take or you can leave it. Life has no meaning. We are accidental products of nature. It does not matter what you do or don't do, Jar. A hundred years from now, no one will care. You are as pointless as the desert wind. And so am I.However, if one is going to be a CHRISTIAN, one would think there are certain things one would have to believe. But evidently your version of Christianity is a lttle different.Which is nice, of course. It's always nice to be politically correct..This message has been edited by robinrohan, 03-25-2006 10:53 PMThis message has been edited by robinrohan, 03-25-2006 10:54 PMThis message has been edited by robinrohan, 03-25-2006 10:58 PM

Fallen humanity sure does like to blame their own faults on God.This message has been edited by Faith, 03-26-2006 12:12 AM

he created us shouldn't the fault lie with the creator and not the created?
i mean come on faith, if some guy makes a chair and someone buys it and it breaks the next day the first time they sit on it do we blame the chair for being faultly made or the maker?being that we are suppost to be made, and the maker instills all the things we are made up of its his fault if we go bad, not ours
when you don't have the capasity to understand things do we blame someone because they don't understand something?

Must say, fallen nature is certainly clever at finding ways of blaming its condition on God and shirking responsibility, even to comparing itself to a senseless chair. Very amusing.

We are responsible for what we do. We are not responsible for the fact that we are not perfect. If God gave us free will (the knowledge of good and evil), the imperfection is built into us.You're the one who's saying that God is so puny that He couldn't control His creation.

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I don't agree. Other scientific theories have radical philosopical implictions. I would say that evolution, unlike other scientific theories has OBVIOUS and EASY TO GRASP radical philosophical implications. Prior to evolution the helio centric vs. geo centric models of the solar system was the subject of debate.Evolution has also been given much press and the man in the street can personalize the notion of descent from a common ancester whereas relativity, quantum mechanics, and other subjects are not so easily represented.lfen

Well you have to consider the business and marketing aspect. If the chair manufacture can show the fault is yours they don't have to replace the chair of refund your money.The priests needed to have an excuse when the power they represented failed to represent the interests of the people. If the people went to a competitor the priest lost business but if the priests could convince the faithful that they were at fault and God was punishing them and that by renewing their commitment to the relions that ultimately the priests would deliver on their promises, well, they kept their customers coming in. The history of organized religion shows that this is indeed a very effective ploy.lfen

Your use of Christian I would take to refer to the religion developed by Constantine. We have only a very tenuous glimpse of early Christianity.It's possible there was an awakened teacher who died too young to fully develop his followers understanding and that all that remains is a garbled misunderstanding that some people are trying to correct.This is only one possible explanation of liberal Christianity. The religion that Constantine's politics developed is a blend of disparate and conflicting agendas but by virtue of its being the dominant to nearly exclusive religion of Europe for hundreds of years means that its nonsense is so deeply engrained in our culture that it has a validity bestowed by tradition.Remember that the religion of Constantine ruthlessly stamped out diversity and enforced orthodoxy. But I'm disappointed that you would give this kind of claim to power any intellectual validity. Whatever you think about the gnostics, unitaritans etc. they were part of the early history of the church and though modern liberal Christianity includes a political correctness group there is more to it than that.lfen

sadly the majority of believers can be overly gullible, good for buisness bad for the bilked.i always found zeus so much more reasonable than yanweh, at least if zeus didn't do anything it was because he was too busy or just didn't careits easy it seems to con people with the unknown, just look at any of the psyics, if they did have those powers i would think they could win the lottery

i guess we can't blame the creator for faults for the creation?
well i guess next time if a bridge collapes i'll blame the people on the bridge and not the contractor or designer

Faith,
As others have said, you can't have it both ways. Omnipotence isn't an issue, omniscience is. If you believe that Yahweh created a perfect world with perfect beings, then 'the Fall' could not have happened. If the Fall did occur, then the creator created knowing it would happen. This means x-bilions of creations (meaning souls) would exist that He knew would live a short pointless life and then an eternity of torment. These are his rules. Then you get to the strictly omnipotent argument, fair or unfair, he is God and you are not. This then leads to the argument of whether or not God is moral or is some kind of super-powerful bully. Do you see the dichotomy?It seems so much simpler to me (as a non-Christian who once was a fundementalist) to believe that the Fall in Genesis is another isolated parable. Maybe relating to some event that occured in our past or not but illustrative of humanity's weakness. It might seem odd, but doesn't the fact that in no Jewish traditions is there a concept of the Fall as interpreted by Christians? Seems funny, they had thousands of years to ponder this and never came up with that meaning. I know that fundies will talk of blood sacrifice and the like, but if you are a true literalist you will find the connection wanting.Now to the topic. I think it can be resolved. There is nothing inherent in the ToE that cannot be reconciled with Christianity. It is exactly the same as Gallileo's heresy. Christianity adapted. Modern Christians of all faiths accept that we are in a distant spiral arm of a galaxy which is one of billions. Why is it so much harder to accecpt that life on this planet, despite thousands of setbacks, was able to evolve a state of consciousness that allowed us to understand God's glory? Is a god that can 'poof' a creation into being better than a god that can create a system that allows infinite diversity on billions of worlds? (Lithodid-Man is a hardcore Trekker, btw)
ABE- removed a cut and paste errorThis message has been edited by Lithodid-Man, 03-26-2006 07:07 AM

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Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"