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Author Topic:   Bible Cryptids/Dinosaurs?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 98 of 202 (297551)
03-23-2006 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by LudoRephaim
03-23-2006 9:19 AM


Re: on the other hand....
LudoRephaim writes:
Do you see anything in the passage that points to myth?
The fire-breathing ought to be your first clue.
(Forget about bombardier beetles. A big animal has no use for a chemical "defense mechanism" - he can crush his enemy like a bug.)

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-23-2006 9:19 AM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 103 of 202 (297899)
03-24-2006 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by LudoRephaim
03-24-2006 6:01 PM


Why does it have to be real?
LudoRephaim writes:
Do you know what firgurative language is?
When figurative language is used, how do you tell if it is referring to an actual beast or a myth?
It seesm that the "fire" that Leviathan seems to emit could very well be figurative of a hiss that a Crocodile makes.
Sounds pretty far-fetched. If I was describing a hiss, I'd probably call it a "hiss".
On the other hand, if I was trying to make up a really scary myth, I might talk about fire-breathing.
It seems likely to be a Croc. But I was right in that the "fire" was figurative of something else.
It's more likely that the whole @#$% thing is figurative - bits and pieces of real animals frankensteined together to make up a mythological beast.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-24-2006 6:01 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-24-2006 6:33 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 106 of 202 (297907)
03-24-2006 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by LudoRephaim
03-24-2006 6:33 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
LudoRephaim writes:
When figurative language is used, how do you tell if it is reffering to an actual beast or a myth?
"It's snorting shakes the Heavens! It's tail does cut the Gods! When it roars, even RA does tremble!"
Maybe I'll get an answer if I ask again: How do you decide what is figurative and what is not? If the fire-breathing is figurative, why must every other feature be shoehorned into a real animal?
Look what God said to Job: Can you catch him like a fish? Can you harpoon him like a whale? Can you harness him like an ox?
It's clearly a series of comparisons to known powerful beasts.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-24-2006 6:33 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-24-2006 7:07 PM ringo has replied
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 110 of 202 (297923)
03-24-2006 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by LudoRephaim
03-24-2006 7:07 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
Maybe the third time's the charm: How do you tell what's figurative and what's not?
You've given a lot of examples of figurative language in Job. Now give us an example of what is not figurative in the description of Leviathan.
Then tell us how you decided that one item is figurative and the other is not.
Then tell us why you decided that Job 41 is a figurative description of a non-figurative beast.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-24-2006 7:07 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-25-2006 1:17 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 111 of 202 (297924)
03-24-2006 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by LudoRephaim
03-24-2006 7:12 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
LudoRephaim writes:
Since "fire" has been shown to be something else....
Where has that been shown?

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 114 of 202 (298027)
03-25-2006 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by LudoRephaim
03-25-2006 1:17 AM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
LudoRephaim writes:
symbolism or metonymy can explain "fire" here. Metaphor can explain "doors" and "shields"
Exactly. Now where's the part that isn't figurative?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-25-2006 1:17 AM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-25-2006 10:42 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 116 of 202 (298194)
03-25-2006 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by LudoRephaim
03-25-2006 10:42 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
LudoRephaim writes:
... I think you are asking how we know that the whole book of Job is allegorical or not.
No. I am asking you specifically why you think Leviathan was a real animal.
... this poem is a narrative, and the story is meant to be taken as a true story despite the fanciful language.
I am asking you why you think it's a historical narrative when so much of it is fanciful. All you've done so far is assert that it is. Why do you think it is? Never mind "it's easy to tell". How do you tell?
... as I have been hinting to you with my posts....
Stop hinting. Come right out and say something.
Why would the author describe the Croc's hiss as "fire"?
That's just the point: the author didn't describe "the croc's hiss" - he described fire. Most of the description of Leviathan does not fit a crocodile.
I don't need you to lecture me on figures of speech.
I am trying to get you to tell us why you think the Leviathan in Job was a literal animal. What difference would it make to the story if it was a real animal?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-25-2006 10:42 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-26-2006 12:12 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 118 of 202 (298207)
03-26-2006 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by LudoRephaim
03-26-2006 12:12 AM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
LudoRephaim writes:
What is the "smoke" that comes out of Leviathan's nostrils (41:20)?
Where there's smoke there's fire:
quote:
Job 41:19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
Job 41:20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
Job 41:21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
Why do you dwell on the smoke and conveniently ignore the rest of the description? Your crocodile is just not plausible.
I'm still trying to get at how you cherry-pick what is literal. So far, it seems that you pick whatever fits your chosen crocodile and handwave the rest away.
So far, it seems that your only answer is, "My professor said so." Is that your final answer?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-26-2006 12:12 AM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-26-2006 10:09 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 121 of 202 (298461)
03-26-2006 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by LudoRephaim
03-26-2006 10:09 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
LudoRephaim writes:
Anybody with a brain can see that "shields" is figurative of "scales".
Yes, and scales are little sheilds - it is a direct one-to-one comparison. Comparing "fire" and "sparks" to "hot breath" is not the same kind of comparison at all.
You ignore my wikipedia post which said that Horses in the ancient past where said to snort flames....
So figurative language can be used to describe literal animals. Does that mean that all figurative language describes literal animals?
I have posted sources. Arachnophilia has too. Crashfrog as well.
As far as I know, arachnophilia and crashfrog would both agree that Leviathan is a mythical beast.
I would LOVE to see you quote far more sources than you have.
I only quoted Job to show the parts that you left out.
I'm not trying to "prove" anything. I'm only trying to get you to explain how you decide what is figurative and what is not. I'm still not seeing anything but "this bit is figurative and that bit isn't".

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-26-2006 10:09 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by arachnophilia, posted 03-26-2006 11:04 PM ringo has not replied
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 Message 124 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-27-2006 8:33 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 125 of 202 (298593)
03-27-2006 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by LudoRephaim
03-27-2006 8:33 AM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
LudoRephaim writes:
What isn't figurative? Anything that is NOT a metaphor, Simele, Metonymy symbolism, etc.
What I am asking you (again) is: How do you decide something is NOT a metaphor, etc.?
I don't care how many references you post to figurative language, past, present or future. That is not the issue. We all agree that figurative language exists.
I'm asking: how do you, LudoRephaim, decide what is figurative and what is not? Since the rest of us seem to agree that Leviathan was mythical, I want to know why you disagree. Why do you think crashfrog's interpretation and arachnophilia's interpretation and my interpretation are wrong and yours is right?
Until you can show why your interpretation is better, you have not "shown that the 'Leviathan' of Job 41 is not mythical".

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-27-2006 8:33 AM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-27-2006 3:49 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 128 of 202 (298772)
03-27-2006 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by LudoRephaim
03-27-2006 3:49 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
LudoRephaim writes:
How do you decide something is NOT a Metaphor,etc.?
When it doesn't LOOK like a Metaphor.
Then the obvious question is: what does a metaphor LOOK like?
How many metaphors do you have to add up before the whole animal becomes metaphoric?
... all the other animals mentioned in similar fashion to Leviathan in the book of Job (chapters 39-40) either are well known animals or animals that are not really impossible to fathom once existed.
That's exactly the point: since the description of Leviathan is not that of a "well-known" animal, why insist that it is one? Since it is described only in figurative terms, why insist that it is not figurative?
It's as if you are here just to debate and not to share info that would be elightening on this thread.
The OP says:
quote:
I was just wondering what other people's interpretations were about the Cryptids mentiioned in the Bible?
That's what you're getting. If you're only interested in Leviathan's shoe size, you're likely to be disappointed.
Make no mistake - this is a debate board. I'm just trying to help you get your point across more clearly.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-27-2006 3:49 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-31-2006 6:58 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 133 of 202 (299926)
03-31-2006 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by LudoRephaim
03-31-2006 6:58 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
LudoRephaim writes:
Why do I believe that Leviathan's fire is figurative while you, arach, and crash think it is literal....
No no no no wait wait wait wait. Nobody said the fire-breathing is literal.
It's because anybody can see that the fire-breathing is figurative that we believe the whole animal is figuarative.
... the "leviathan" of Job 41 is a Croc....
See, the problem is that you're ignoring the whole point of the story.
God says to Job, "Look at the Leviathan. You can't catch him with a fish hook or a spear. You can't harness him. You can't control him in any way, and how much more powerful than that is God? Who are you to question God?"
Now, if Leviathan was a croc, Job's reaction would have been, "Give me enough guys and enough weapons and I'll turn your croc into shoes and purses."
It only takes three guys with spears and ropes to kill a croc. If Leviathan was a croc it would make the whole story a joke.
... this animal, when the evidence is looked at carefully, is a Crocodile.
Nope. Doesn't work at all. It's possible that crocodile sightings gave people ideas for the figuarative language used to describe Leviathan. But it can not be a literal crocodile - they're not near powerful enough.
It can not be any literal animal because God tells Job that men can not kill it.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-31-2006 6:58 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by arachnophilia, posted 04-01-2006 5:19 AM ringo has replied
 Message 138 by LudoRephaim, posted 04-05-2006 9:20 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 136 of 202 (300034)
04-01-2006 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by arachnophilia
04-01-2006 5:19 AM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
arachnophilia writes:
"his breath kindles coals" is figurative for "fire breathing." i don't suspect it's a metaphor, on top of the figurative language.
Hmmm.... Here's me thinking that a non-literal beast can not breathe literal fire.
I'm not suggesting that there's a metaphor "on top of the figurative language". I'm saying that if Leviathan is not literal, then the description of him is automatically not literal, regardless of how literal the language used to describe him.
but i don't think it's a good enough reason to go reading prehistoric reptiles into it, either.
I was keeping this Derringer in my boot (figuratively ), but I'll bring it out now, in case Ludo doesn't take the Leviathan-hook:
quote:
Job 41:33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.
It sounds like there is only one Leviathan - no Mrs. Leviathan, no Leviathan Jr. (heir to the throne), no baby Leviathans, no Leviathan eggs....
Literal animals are populations, not unique individuals. (I noticed that one of Ludo's references goes on about the Loch Ness monster. One of the criticisms of that legend is that Loch Ness is not big enough to sustain a population of such large creatures.)
So, "On earth there is not his like" strongly suggests a non-literal Leviathan, more of a Godzilla than a literal dinosaur. The Book of Job is the first Japanese monster movie.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by arachnophilia, posted 04-01-2006 5:19 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 139 of 202 (301106)
04-05-2006 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by LudoRephaim
04-05-2006 9:20 AM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
LudoRehaim writes:
a Croc's hide is strong enough to repell harpoons and spears....
Since you lova da references so much, here's a picture or two of African crocodile hunters.
Tell those guys it can't be done.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by LudoRephaim, posted 04-05-2006 9:20 AM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by LudoRephaim, posted 04-05-2006 10:12 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 143 of 202 (301398)
04-05-2006 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by LudoRephaim
04-05-2006 10:12 PM


Re: Why does it have to be real?
LudoRephaim writes:
The source you posted shows that people today can hunt Crocs with spears, but it doesn't say HOW they hunt the crocs.
This is about as much as I could find about how a croc might be killed with spears.
(I dont think they would wade in water or sail in such a small boat if doing so, lest they be EATEN by a 20 foot Croc!)
Well, apparently they do wade in the water and use small boats. Do you think they put up a sign to keep the big ones away?
Are they hunting young Crocs? smaller females?
Again, do you suppose the young and the females frequent a different lake?
Are you sure they can pierce a huge Croc's back?
Who said they had to pierce the back? As long as they can kill it, it ain't much of a "leviathan".
I'd like to see absolute proof that they can do it with spears.
Have a Google around the Internet. Apparently, it's pretty common for "primitive" peoples in crocodile-infested territory to kill them with primitive "stone age" weapons.
Job never gets to add "if I had a few guys" Because God asks if HE, not he and many others, HE could take on a Leviathan.
Did God rule out getting help? The story doesn't seem very impressive if Levathan is only more powerful than a sick old man.
There was plenty of time for a whole bunch of guys to be mentioned to help Job against Leviathan, just as fishhooks, ropes, spears, harpoons and hooks are mentioned as being available in this hypothetical clash between Job and Leviathan (Look closely at Job 41) Yet they never are.
I think it implies pretty clearly that Job could not kill Leviathan with all of the resources at his disposal. Once again, the power of Leviathan would be meaningless if God set up a bunch of rules about how many men Job could have on his team.
God doesn't need anybody to help him take on such beasts, and Job is being asked if he could do the same.
The implication seems to be that all men put together are not as powerful as God. No matter how many men Job could muster, he couldn't do what God can do.
You said that Leviathan was a single creature because it only mentions one....
No. I said that the Bible says specifically that there is only one Leviathan:
quote:
Job 41:33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.
You say that Leviathan is supernatural....
No. I said that Leviathan was mythical, not supernatural.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by LudoRephaim, posted 04-05-2006 10:12 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-05-2006 5:23 PM ringo has replied

  
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