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Author Topic:   Luke and Matthews geneologies
w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6134 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 61 of 168 (25461)
12-04-2002 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by judge
11-16-2002 6:48 AM


quote:
Originally posted by judge:
It is often pointed out that if we compare Matthews geneology of Jesus with that of Luke major problems become apparent.
Are you aware of any of the possible solutions to these supposed problems that do not require a working knowledge of Greek or Aramaic?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by judge, posted 11-16-2002 6:48 AM judge has replied

Replies to this message:
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w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6134 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 82 of 168 (28923)
01-12-2003 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by judge
11-16-2002 6:48 AM


quote:
Originally posted by judge:
It is often pointed out that if we compare Matthews geneology of Jesus with that of Luke major problems become apparent.
Firstly Matthew specifically refers to three sets of 14 , or 42 generations until Jesus. However if we add up the generations it is quite clear there are only 41! A pretty obvious mistake!
You have made a fairly common mistake in assuming that the Bible here contains a pretty obvious mistake. Note the very preciseness with which Matthew 1:17 is worded.
So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
Here are the three sets of fourteen generations as stated in this verse.
1. From Abraham to David
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judas, Phares, Esrom, Aram, Aminadab, Naasson, Salmon, Booz, Obed, Jesse, and David. Fourteen generations.
2. From David until the carrying away into Babylon
David, Solomon, Rogoam, Abia, Asa, Josaphat, Joram, Ozias, Joatham, Achaz, Ezekias, Manasses, Amon, and Josias. Fourteen generations.
3. From the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ
Jechonias, Salathiel, Zorobabel, Abiud, Eliakim, Azor, Sadoc, Achim, Eliud, Eleazar, Matthan, Jacob, Joseph, and Jesus. Fourteen generations.
Notice that the Bible does not claim that their are fourty-two generations total. It simply presents the three sets of fourteen generations.
quote:
Secondly Matthew tels us that Josephs father was Jacob
Matthew 16:19
" and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ."
whereas Luke seems to clearly and directly contradict this, Luke 3:23-24
"Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
the son of Heli, the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,"
Unfortunately many commentators have tried to explain this by ignoring what the text plainly says. However, there is a surprisingly simple explanation to both of the above problems that ha escaped most commentators.
The Joseph mentioned in Matthew 1:16 is the father of Mary not the husband! Thus this gives us 42 generations and it explains that Joseph the husband of Mary had only one father.
Ver. 23...
being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph; who had espoused Mary
before she was with child of the Holy Ghost, and afterwards took her to
wife, and brought up her son; so that it was not known but that he was
the son of Joseph. Whether or no the Jewish notion of the Messiah, the
son of Joseph {y} may not take its rise from hence, may be considered:
however, Joseph might very rightly be called, as he was supposed to be,
the father of Jesus, by a rule which obtains with the Jews {z} that he
"that brings up, and not he that begets, is called the
father, ''
or parent; of which they give various instances {a} in Joseph, in
Michal, and in Pharaoh's daughter.
Which was the son of Eli; meaning, not that Joseph was the son of Eli;
for he was the son of Jacob, according to Mt 1:16, but Jesus was
the son of Eli; and which must be understood, and carried through the
whole genealogy, as thus; Jesus the son of Matthat, Jesus the son of
Levi, Jesus the son of Melchi, &c. till you come to Jesus the son of
Adam, and Jesus the Son of God; though it is true indeed that Joseph
was the son of Eli, having married his daughter; Mary was the daughter
of Eli: and so the Jews speak of one Mary, the daughter of Eli, by whom
they seem to design the mother of our Lord: for they tell {b} us of
one,
"that saw Mary the daughter of Eli in the
shades, hanging by the fibres of her breasts; and there
are that say, the gate, or, as elsewhere {c}, the bar of
the gate of hell is fixed to her ear.''
By the horrible malice, in the words, you may know who is meant:
however, this we gain by it, that by their own confession, Mary is the
daughter of Eli; which accords with this genealogy of the evangelist,
who traces it from Mary, under her husband Joseph; though she is not
mentioned, because of a rule with the Jews {d}, that
"the family of the mother is not called a family.''
{y} T. Bab. Succa, fol. 52. 1. Jarchi & Aben Ezra in Zech. xii 10. &
xiii. 7.
{z} Shemot Rabba, sect. 46. fol. 143. 1.
{a} T. Bab. Sanhedrin, fol. 19. 2. Vid. T. Bab. Megilla, fol. 13. 1.
{b} T. Hieros. Sanhedrin, fol. 25. 3.
{c} Ib. Chagiga, fol. 77. 4.
{d} Juchasin, fol. 55. 2.
From An Exposition Of The New Testament vol. 1, By John Gill, D.D., 1851

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by judge, posted 11-16-2002 6:48 AM judge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-13-2003 10:05 PM w_fortenberry has replied
 Message 86 by John, posted 01-15-2003 12:05 PM w_fortenberry has not replied

  
w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6134 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 84 of 168 (29186)
01-15-2003 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by iconoclast2440
01-13-2003 10:05 PM


quote:
Oh God here we.....
quote:
The Joseph mentioned in Matthew 1:16 is the father of Mary not the husband!
where on earth do you get this crappola? Please show me in the bible where i mentions Mary's father.
Christian you don't seem to realize that women can't provide lineage!
quote:
Thus this gives us 42 generations and it explains that Joseph the husband of Mary had only one father.
LOL. No it doesn't. Matthew was deep into numerology. Hence the repeating sevens.
Please read my post again after reading the post to which I was replying. This may help you to understand the meaning of the term, "quote."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-13-2003 10:05 PM iconoclast2440 has not replied

  
w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6134 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 85 of 168 (29187)
01-15-2003 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by iconoclast2440
01-13-2003 10:05 PM


quote:
Originally posted by iconoclast2440:
This is absolutely ridiculous.
Your mere claim of the ridiculous nature of the statement does not in any way prove or disprove the validity of that statement.
quote:
Of course it doesn't even say that in the scriptures....
I will answer this argument shortly, but I must first seek clarification of a few of your comments.
quote:
did the early church father's hold this notion??? Nope. wonder why.
How do you know that the early church father's did not hold to this notion? How much of their original writings have you read? Did you read English translations or did you obtain copies still in the original languages. Have you checked the actual existing documents to make sure that the copies you read were not altered? And did you verify that the documents now extant have not been themselves modified for some political purpose?
quote:
There isn't even a shread of evidence for this ANY where in the bible.
I will answer this statement soon.
quote:
Sorry a child without a father doesn't take the line of the mother's father. It never worked that way.
Perhaps you could explain how it did work.
quote:
Ok i am not even going to respond to the rest of this as its not at all based in truth.
Again, your mere claim does not in any way prove or disprove the validity of the statement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-13-2003 10:05 PM iconoclast2440 has replied

Replies to this message:
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w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6134 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 92 of 168 (29588)
01-19-2003 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by iconoclast2440
01-13-2003 10:05 PM


quote:
Clearly you don't realize that Yechoniah was a cursed king.
Actually Jeconias was not the one cursed; his father Jehoiakim was. This is why Jehoiakim is not mentioned in Matthew's genealogy. Please reference Jeremiah 22:18-30 and Jeremiah 36:30.
Jeremiah 22:18 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah; They shall not lament for him, saying, Ah my brother! or, Ah sister! they shall not lament for him, saying, Ah lord! or, Ah his glory!
19 He shall be buried with the burial of an ass, drawn and cast forth beyond the gates of Jerusalem.
20 Go up to Lebanon, and cry; and lift up thy voice in Bashan, and cry from the passages: for all thy lovers are destroyed.
21 I spake unto thee in thy prosperity; but thou saidst, I will not hear. This hath been thy manner from thy youth, that thou obeyedst not my voice.
22 The wind shall eat up all thy pastors, and thy lovers shall go into captivity: surely then shalt thou be ashamed and confounded for all thy wickedness.
23 O inhabitant of Lebanon, that makest thy nest in the cedars, how gracious shalt thou be when pangs come upon thee, the pain as of a woman in travail!
24 As I live, saith the LORD, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah were the signet upon my right hand, yet would I pluck thee thence;
25 And I will give thee into the hand of them that seek thy life, and into the hand of them whose face thou fearest, even into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of the Chaldeans.
26 And I will cast thee out, and thy mother that bare thee, into another country, where ye were not born; and there shall ye die.
27 But to the land whereunto they desire to return, thither shall they not return.
28 Is this man Coniah a despised broken idol? is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not?
29 O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD.
30 Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.
Jeremiah 36:30 Therefore thus saith the LORD of Jehoiakim king of Judah; He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost.
quote:
Of course it doesn't even say that in the scriptures
Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,
25 Which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge,
26 Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,
27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,
28 Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son of Er,
29 Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi,
30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,
31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,
32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,
33 Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which was the son of Juda,
34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,
35 Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber, which was the son of Sala,
36 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe, which was the son of Lamech,
37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Notice the grammatical structure of this passage. In particular, notice the parenthesis in verse 23. The usage of a parenthesis denotes a thought that is parenthetical to the main thought. Thus "as was supposed" is parenthetical to "Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being the son of Joseph." Therefore in analyzing the grammatical structure we must analyze it as if "as was supposed" were not included.
The subject of this sentence is, of course, Jesus; "himself" is an appositive; "began" is the verb, and "to be about thirty years of age" is an Infinitive phrase which is the direct object of that verb. We now come to the phrase, "being the son of Joseph." This phrase is an appositive to the subject, "Jesus." If we eliminate from our study the intervening appositive, verb, and infinitive phrase, we are left with, "Jesus, being the son of Joseph."
Having established this, allow me to draw to your attention the remaining phrases of our passage. The phrase immediately after "Joseph" is, "which was the son of Heli." This phrase and all those following it is an appositive phrase containing a pronoun, a being verb, a predicate nominative, and a prepositional phrase. They are parallel in structure. If, as we have done, we remove the intervening words from our study, we can see that all the phrases from, "being the son of Joseph," to, "which was the son of God," are parallel appositives of the primary noun in the sentence, "Jesus." Thus "Jesus" is the antecedent of each "which." Jesus was the son of Heli. Jesus was the son of Maathat. Jesus was the son of Levi, and so on until the conclusion, Jesus was the son of God.
quote:
There isn't even a shread of evidence for this ANY where in the bible.
Throughout Scripture, different people have been referred to as a son of David. Most of the kings of Judah were compared to David by stating that each of them did or did not do something as did "David his father." Christ himself was called "Jesus, thou son of David." Such usage of terms of relationship is very common in the Scriptures and there is no reason why such usage should not be applied to the genealogy of Christ.
quote:
Sorry a child without a father doesn't take the line of the mother's father. It never worked that way.
quote:
Perhaps you could explain how it did work.
IT COULDN'T HAVE JESUS IS A FRAUD.
Why couldn't it have? How many children do you know who claim the lineage of their adoptive father because they do not have a biological father?
quote:
did the early church father's hold this notion??? Nope. wonder why.
quote:
How do you know that the early church father's did not hold to this notion? How much of their original writings have you read?
Have you ever bothered to read their works? I know they wouldn't have thought this because it was contrary to the prophecies of Christ AND to jewish laws of decent.
Are you saying that since this "was contrary to the prophecies of Christ AND to jewish laws of decent," you are supposing that the church fathers would not have thought it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-13-2003 10:05 PM iconoclast2440 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by John, posted 01-19-2003 6:16 PM w_fortenberry has not replied

  
w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6134 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 108 of 168 (29869)
01-22-2003 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by iconoclast2440
01-21-2003 3:52 PM


quote:
I was being sardonic above. I don't need your input here. There isn't any way to clearly explain these biblical problems without more problems arising.
If you do not need someone's input, then why do you debate? Perhaps you should instead spend your time writing a book in which you make known to the world your infallible knowledge.
quote:
It appears to me that you never read.
Can anyone direct me to a single post in which iconoclast2440 has referenced an outside source for his arguments? I have not been able to find one. Iconoclast2440, how many books have you read regarding this topic? What are their titles? Who wrote them? Have you read from all sides of the argument? Have you even read the Bible all the way through?
By the way, you did not answer my previous question about whether you had read any of the early church fathers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-21-2003 3:52 PM iconoclast2440 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-22-2003 3:08 PM w_fortenberry has replied

  
w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6134 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 110 of 168 (29932)
01-22-2003 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by iconoclast2440
01-22-2003 3:08 PM


Iconoclast2440, due to the nature of your responses throughout our brief discussion, I have decided that I will no longer hold open debate with you.
Your attitude has not been the least conductive to a healthy debate.
quote:
And you have taken the ridiculous position of defending matthew's numeroglical decent.
quote:
where on earth do you get this crappola?
quote:
This is absolutely ridiculous.
quote:
Ok i am not even going to respond to the rest of this as its not at all based in truth.
quote:
Therefore your entire argument IS ridiculous.
quote:
Considering you can't back up anything you have stated your position IS ridiculous.
quote:
No you won't.
quote:
Again, no you won't.
quote:
Hence the reason i call your stance bs.
You have also shown either an unwillingness or an inability to read previous posts.
Reference posts 83 and 84 as well as 107, 108, and 109.
You have failed to provide evidence in response to direct questions regarding your position.
quote:
How do you know that the early church father's did not hold to this notion? How much of their original writings have you read? Did you read English translations or did you obtain copies still in the original languages. Have you checked the actual existing documents to make sure that the copies you read were not altered? And did you verify that the documents now extant have not been themselves modified for some political purpose?
quote:
Perhaps you could explain how it did work.
quote:
Why couldn't it have? How many children do you know who claim the lineage of their adoptive father because they do not have a biological father?
quote:
Are you saying that since this "was contrary to the prophecies of Christ AND to jewish laws of decent," you are supposing that the church fathers would not have thought it?
quote:
By the way, you did not answer my previous question about whether you had read any of the early church fathers.
I will not reply to any of your future posts unless I see a noticable change in your disposition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-22-2003 3:08 PM iconoclast2440 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-23-2003 12:18 AM w_fortenberry has not replied
 Message 114 by iconoclast2440, posted 01-28-2003 3:22 PM w_fortenberry has not replied

  
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