Bible Cryptids/Dinosaurs?

As for your "snake" comment:There is a tale of a talking Donkey in Numbers 22:22-35. In this passage, the Donkey is given the ability to talk by God himself. This animal is not a supernautral spirit, just an animal that was divinly gifted with human speech (wonder if he knew Shrek....)The Serpent could no doubt have been supernaturally gifted with speech, though it was not likely from God (i'm thinking Satan possibly)This is not to be a scienftific discussion when dealing with the talking serpent. Just a theological one. But you are right that the serpent is seen as nothing more than a snake in the text.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

BTW: "The New Jerome Biblical Commentary" does agree with you: Behemoth's "tail" more than likely means "Phallus" (Page 488)

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Although it seems that the modern Hippopotamus ("Riverhorse" in greek, if i'm not mistaken)does not fit the bill of the Biblical "Behemoth" it doesn't mean that it was not some sort of Hippo. "Hippopotamus Gorgops" a much larger hippo than the modern one, lived up to relatively recent times, living in PLeistocene East Africa (Page 268 of "The Simon & Schuster Encyclopedia of Dinosaurs & Prehistoric Beasts")it is not impossible for this animal to have survived up to recent times, and it might have lived in the Middle East or near it When Job was written (pre-2000 BC to 4th century BC, depending on who you ask)This Hippo was very, very large, and it's nose might have therefore been too large and strong to be pierced, like Behemoth of Job.Possible, but not proven.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

"It's snorting shakes the Heavens! It's tail does cut the Gods! When it roars, even RA does tremble!" well, you are not the author of Job, are you? You dont live back in the distant ages of antiquity, do you? I think that's similar to what scientists thought when they saw for the first time the body of a Duck Billed Platypus (page 123 of "LIFE: The Seven Wonders of the World")But everybody has their point of view. If you belief that, that's fine. You believe one thing, i'll believe another.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Whats' figurative and what's not?"Can you fill his skin with Harpoons or his head with fishing spears?" Job 41:7.
THis is asking if Job can kill a Leviathan with fishing spears or harpoons. Nothing seems ta be figurative here."I will not keep silence concerning his limbs, or his mighty strength, or his googly frame." JOb 41:12.I know al lot of animal species that have powerful limbs, great strength, and huge size (Grizzly Bear, Gorilla, Crocodiles for example)Nothing seems to be figurative here."Who can open the doors of his face?..""Doors" seems to be good figurative language for "Jaws". I dont think that the ancients, when describing a mythical beast, would say it had literal DOORS on it's face in order to impose terror. This is poetry, and poetry is powerful and can be figurative. Solomon calls his beloved a "Dove" in Song of Solomon 6:9. Dont think he means that his beloved is literally a dove (Song of Solomon 7:6-8)"His back has rows of shields, shut up closely as with a seal" Job 41:15."shields" sounds to me a lot like scales. You can figuratively call the tough scales on a Croc's back "shields" Figurative language."His breath kindles coals, and a flame comes forth from his mouth." Job 41:21.Seems to me like a hiss that a Croc would make when ticked off. Have you heared of "letting off steam?"When she rouses herself to flee, she laughs at the Horse and his rider"If you look at the context (Job 39:13-18) this is talking about an ostritch. But that cant be right! No Ostritch laughs! MUST BE MYTHICAL!!!Probably using poetic language here, since this book is poetry.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Since "fire" has been shown to be something else, then nothing in this verse really does show this "Leviathan" to be anything more than a normal animal. Other passages in the Bible about Leviathan are monsters of the supernatural or other creatures. This one though seems nothing more than a huge reptile. Croc.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Another way you can tell if something is a mythical monster or not is to see what it can do. If it "Frightens the Gods" that sounds to me something like a supernatural beast (as I hinted in the post you replied to)
If "fire" is shown to be figurative for a roar or hiss, and if the rest of the text doesn't show anything mythical, then the animal is most likely not mythical.BTW: when one sees that "Fire" isn't fire, and when one knows the figurative poetical language of the text, then the Nile Croc fits the bill ("Dinosaurs and the Bible" pages 37-38)This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 03-24-2006 07:17 PM

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

In Poetry (such as Job) there are certain things you can employ:Metaphor:His bones are tubes of bronze.Simile:It's limbs like bars of ironsymbolism or metonymy can explain "fire" here. Metaphor can explain "doors" and "shields"It's late. later

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

I dont know exactly what you are trying to say, but I think you are asking how we know that the whole book of Job is allegorical or not. THe Book of Job is narrative and poetry. The area where God is talking to Job about the animals (Job 39-41) is wonderful poetry. Now when it comes to normal poetry, the kind that isn't telling a story, then the poem can mean almost anything. But this poem is a narrative, and the story is meant to be taken as a true story despite the fanciful language. Job is not allegorical for Israel or David or the Earth. He is a real man in this story. And in the Behemoth/Leviathan part of Job, God is literally talking to Job about two very powerful beasts and describing them in poetic language. God is saying to Job "if you cannot take on these two powerful beasts, how can you take on me?"No there are many parts of Job that are NOT figurative. But as I have been hinting to you with my posts, in poetry, figurative language (metaphor, simele, Euphemism, etc) can be noticed quite easily if you know what they are and how to spot them. The "fire" of Leviathan could be metaphorical of it's hiss (as my source I posted mentioned. Did you read it?)Why would the author describe the Croc's hiss as "fire"? Why would one describe a woman's breasts as twin fawns of a Gazelle (Song of Solomon 7:3)? Really dont know, but if you know what poetry is, and when you know that Job is both prose and poetry, and when you know what is metaphor, what is simele, and what is NOT, you can pretty much find out what is being figurative and what is not. Behemoths bones "His bones" are literally "bones" and when they are said to be "tubes of Bronze" that's a metaphor. Usually when you see something normal (bones)compared to something that it is not (bronze), the comparison is describing a feature of that particular thing (bones compared with bronze=strong bones). On a cold morning, a Croc's nose might seem to be emitting "smoke" to an untrained person or ancient Hebrew (41:20)We can still see this today on a cold morning if we can see a Croc, but the "smoke" is not real "smoke" but it's breath, in science terms "carbon Dioxide". Taking that, and the fact that JOb and and the ancient world was ignorant of modern science and understanding, then the Croc's breath might seem to be "smoke" and where there is smoke....I tried to explain this as good as possible. Arachnophilia made similar suggestions about Behemoth's tail (tail stiffens likea cedar...Phallus)I dont know if I can explain it better, and if I cant, then you either need to talk to Arach, or study up on poetry.This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 03-25-2006 10:45 PMThis message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 03-25-2006 10:46 PM

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Finally, I know what you are asking.Although the Book of Job does not have to be historical to prove a point, it is presented as a story, and given the other fanciful accounts in the Bible (talking Donkey hehe) I dont see anything in it that shows this book to be a theological fiction, that's my view.In my "Hebrew poetry and Wisdom class" we learned that this book is Historical narrative just like Genesis and Joshua, yet with apoetic spin. Indeed, not all of Job is poetical narrative. The first 2 chapters read as a narrative, without almost no (if any) poetical language. Job 42:7-17 are likewise just plain narrative. Some of the poetic discourses between Job and his freinds, according to my Professor during this class, was not unusual for semetic peoples, probably referring to the times that the events in Job are believed to have taken place (2000 BC). He didn't cite a source though. What is the "smoke" that comes out of Leviathan's nostrils (41:20)? If you see a Croc on a cold morning it's breath looks like smoke, and to the ignorant ancient, it might have been seen as Smoke.You have to remember that the ancients who wrote the Books of the Bible where not zoologists or scientists with modern day knowledge. For example, the Ostritch is seen as cruel in Job, often leaving her eggs out to warm, exposing them to being crushed by a wild animal, and is said to be cruel to her young (Job 39:13-18) Yet what seemed like cruel behavior to the ancients turned out to be not so cruel at all! The Ostritch leaves her eggs out to warm, and seemingly doesn't care if an animal steps on them. But she doesn;t need to worry: Ostritch eggs are very, very hard to break, let alone crushed (IVP Bible Background Commentary: Old testament. Page 510) The Ostritch will run from a predator to draw them away from their young, but to the ancients it seemed like it was running away and left their young to fend for themselves against a predator (see same book and page)See my point? The Ostritch is being described the way the Hebrews saw them (observation) and the ancient hebrws and other ancients, without modern knowledge of ostritch habits, would have thought the same thing. The Ostritch isn't "cruel" any more than the "Leviathan" breathes fire. It's just the way the ancients saw them.This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 03-26-2006 12:12 AM

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Cherry pick?"his back is made of rows of shields" 41:15Compare with"Out of his mouth go flaming torches" 41:19Anybody with a brain can see that "shields" is figurative of "scales". It has similar language as 41:19 with "fire" Both of these are definitely nOT meant to be taken literally. I thought that you could see that.You ignore my wikipedia post which said that Horses in the ancient past where said to snort flames, as well as "dinosaurs and the Bible" which shows that the Croc does fit.I have posted sources. Arachnophilia has too. Crashfrog as well. You only posted the King James Bible, which is not the best translation. I would LOVE to see you quote far more sources than you have.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

Maybe not to you, but to the ancients it seemed okay, even when describing a Horse's snorts to fire Sometimes yes, sometimes no, depending on the animal described. I have shown that the "Leviathan" of Job 41 is not mythical.

I have told you and told you again what is figurative:Simele,Metaphor,Metonymy,symbolism, etc. What isn't figurative? Anything that is NOT a metaphor, Simele, Metonymy symbolism, etc.Crashfrog and Arachnophilia do believe that Leviathan is mythical, but my point is they actually posted sources that are reliable.

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

When it doesn't LOOK like a Metaphor.Why I believe that the "Leviathan" of Job 41 is not mythical while you do is that all the other animals mentioned in similar fashion to Leviathan in the book of Job (chapters 39-40) either are well known animals or animals that are not really impossible to fathom once existed. Another reasons is that while other parts of Leviathan's "anatomy" are agreed by you as being Metaphor (Leviathan's "doors" (jaws)"Garment" (skin) and shields (scales) in JOb 41)"fire" just CANNOT be a metaphor for anything else than fire. Heaven Forbid! (arach and Crashfrog not included in this last remark)Leviathan does not have literal doors (it's mouth is not made out of wood, and it doesn't have a doorknob)it doesn't have literal shields on it's back (shields are weapons made of metal or wood used for defense. Scales are natural armor used for protection. They could in a sense be called "shields" but they are totally different things)and it does not shoot out of it's mouth literalfire.Even if the "fire" is meant to be taken literally, it still doesn't prove that Leviathan actually breathed fire, as this site shows.IBSS - The Bible and Science - Dinosaurs in the Bible?so either way, it is NOT firethis discussion is really going nowhere. It's starting to sound like one of those foolish controversies that Titus 3:9 talks about. I've used a lot of sources, you have used only words. It's as if you are here just to debate and not to share info that would be elightening on this thread. Unless you actually use more than rhetoric in this discussion, I suggest we drop this.This message has been edited by LudoRephaim, 03-27-2006 03:50 PM

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

BTW: the website I just quoted leans to the view that Behemoth is mythical, tough it might hint that it is based on a real animal. So here is a post that shows it could very well be a real animal.Behemoth - Wikipedia

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"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4