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Author | Topic: Limestone Layers and the Flood | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
edge Member (Idle past 1706 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Christian will form her own opinion of Walt Brown. Will?
Let's try to stick to dealing with what he has actually has written. Hey, I'm trying. But reading unsupported assertion after assertion is kind of boring.
There is pleanty to do thaere. Good. Let's talk about the caverns... (crickets chirping) Want more examples?
Comments on whether or not it's helped Christian or whether it was money well spent have nothing to do with the topic. Just trying to elicit a response. All I hear about is how wonderful Walt's book is.
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Christian Member (Idle past 6255 days) Posts: 157 Joined: |
DBlevins writes: When sea level slowly drops it can leave behind shallow seas blocked from mixing with the main body of water and as the "inland" sea evaporates it becomes more briny When sea level slowly drops it can leave behind shallow seas blocked from mixing with the main body of water and as the "inland" sea evaporates it becomes more briny. I don't see how water evaporating can cause magnesium to enter the sea.
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NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
I think someone pointed out that if water with a certain Mg concentration infiltrates limestone then a chemical reaction occurs.
I think someone also noted that seawater contains Mg; it is a reasonably common element. Now what happens if you take cubic kilometers of seawater and remove a lot of water by evaporation? -- hint: Mg doesn't evaporate all that easily.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The history of the earth is filled with transgressions and regressions of sea's over the continents. During high sea levels and long periods of time you can have a build up of limestone, expecially in warm shallow areas such as coral reefs. When sea level slowly drops it can leave behind shallow seas blocked from mixing with the main body of water and as the "inland" sea evaporates it becomes more briny. This briny sea can still percolate through the limestone and the Magnesium in this briny sea can start replacing some of the Calcium ions in the limestone. (as a side note, there is an area in Michigan iirc where such a large inland sea occured and we can see this in the rock record. Also in Texas, thus the high oil abundance there.) This chemical replacement of ions forms dolomite which is basically limestone, just that some of the calcium ions have been replaced with magnesium. Except of course for the time factor, all such scenarios are quite consistent with what a Flood would likely have done -- left large inland seas for instance, which slowly evaporated or seeped into the ground. The flood would have left "shore lines" too in the process of receding. Also no doubt tides and wave action that covered a lot of distance across the continents as the flood receded. This message has been edited by Faith, 03-22-2006 05:04 PM
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Jazzns Member (Idle past 3911 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
For someone who does not want to defend the flood you certainly do bring it up a lot.
Please provide support for your assertion that the flood is the cause of transgressive/regressive sequences that produce alternating layers of limestone and other fine grained sediment or go back to your stance of admitted inability to defend the flood. Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I believe it is a possibility, consistent with the idea of a flood. That's all I said. I'm sure geologists can come up with all kinds of OE-based objections. Then it's just a matter of finding a creationist geologist for battling out the interpretive scenarios, the possibilities, the conjectures, with scientific considerations because there's no way to PROVE any of it.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-22-2006 05:25 PM
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edge Member (Idle past 1706 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
I believe it is a possibility, consistent with the idea of a flood. That's all I said. I'm sure geologists can come up with all kinds of OE-based objections. Then it's just a matter of finding a creationist geologist for battling out the interpretive scenarios, the possibilities, the conjectures, with scientific considerations because there's no way to PROVE any of it. But creationist geologists won't come here will they? Why do you think that is? Could it be that there are extremely few of them? Why would that be? Or could it be that they know they can't hold their own? Don't you feel the least bit betrayed by these people who won't lift a finger to help you? I'd say that creationist geologists have abandoned the field. In fact, I'd also say that they are dependent upon the layman's ignorance of geology. THey WANT you to remain ignorant of the subject. And while we can't 'prove' anything in the sense that you seem to require, we can make an excellent case that there was no global flood. The creationists geologists know this. That is why they prefer to let non-geologists fight this battle.
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Percy Member Posts: 22391 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Faith writes: I believe it is a possibility, consistent with the idea of a flood. What you need to do is explain how the alternating geologic layers and the record of transgressing and regressing shorelines are consistent with a flood. It may be obvious to you how a single global flood is consistent with the evidence, but it isn't obvious to anyone else, and that's why you have to explain it. The reason no one else can see how a global flood could have produced the evidence we find is that Genesis tells us that the floods of the great deep rushed out and that it rained for 40 days and 40 nights. The water rose steadily until it was twenty feet above the highest mountains and flooded the earth for 150 days. And then God closed the floodgates of the heavens and the springs of the deep and sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded. There was only one transgression and one regression. If we could focus on just a single mystery, how could a flood produce alternating types of sedimentary deposits? If we use the Grand Canyon as an example, from the top down we have layers in this order:
Limestone Sandstone, limestone, gypsum Sandstone Shale Sandstone Limestone Limestone Limestone Shale Sandstone How would a flood deposit these alternating layers? --Percy
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Ratel Inactive Member |
Let me play "yahweh's advocate"- what if in the antediluvian world, the microorganisms that made up modern limestone deposits suddenly experienced an unprecedented surge of growth in the pre-flood and early flood stages, then, as the torrents dislodged mountain ranges, these vastly over-populated masses of organisms were buried by alternating landslides of sand and silt, preserving them as limestone...
alright, that probably has a million holes in it, here's a 100+ year old essay on chalk that methodically shows that chalk must be older than Adam: http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/CE8/Chalk.html I don't know how much of what's in there has been superceded by the last century of geological advances, but it's a pretty nice explanation of the evidence to that date.
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DBlevins Member (Idle past 3775 days) Posts: 652 From: Puyallup, WA. Joined: |
I don't see how water evaporating can cause magnesium to enter the sea. To form dolomite by replacementof calcite or aragonite (in the limestone) you need: ” Water of the right composition and” A mechanism to move that water through the limestone: ” Requires periodic flooding of an exposed tidal flat or “sabkha” over a limestone ” Evaporation that causes evaporites (especially gypsum, CaSO42H2O) to precipitate ” Two effects: - increased density of brine, so it sinks through the limestone - increase in the Mg/Ca ratio of brine as the Ca-depleted (Mg-rich) brine movesthrough the limestone [Cc (CaCO3)] is replaced by Dolomite (CaMg(CO3)2) This mechanism is the one I outlined in This post. Also, if you might read the link I provided in that same post (the part I'm asking you to read is short and sweet) you might get a better picture of what I was talking about. hint...there are some pictures describing the event in question on page 16 of the link.
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Christian Member (Idle past 6255 days) Posts: 157 Joined: |
NosyNed writes:
yes
I think someone pointed out that if water with a certain Mg concentration infiltrates limestone then a chemical reaction occurs. NosyNed writes:
You have to remember that I have very little knowledge in this area. Could you please explain to me how magnesium gets into the seawater.
I think someone also noted that seawater contains Mg; it is a reasonably common element.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
Could you please explain to me how magnesium gets into the seawater.
Magnesium, as well as sodium, is very common in minerals as well as pretty soluble in water when in the compounds that exist in many of those minerals. Water eroding rocks in streams and rivers, or water circulating through "black smokers" and the like in the ocean floor, will pick up these (and other) elements and then hold them in solution. Calcium also dissolves, but a lot of it comes back out of solution, mostly as the calcium carbonate shells of many different kinds of marine creatures.
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Percy Member Posts: 22391 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Christian writes: You have to remember that I have very little knowledge in this area. Could you please explain to me how magnesium gets into the seawater. Erosive forces on land, such as weathering and rivers, cause erosion, the gradual but perpetual whittling away of the continents. The eventual destination of most eroded land is the oceans. Magnesium is contained in many minerals (it represents about 2.1% by weight of all minerals), and so it is carried to the sea with everything else that's eroded away. Any material found on land should also be found in oceans. Magnesium is very common in both minerals and oceans. --Percy
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NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
In the discussion we are having does where the Mg came from matter? If you don't focus then you are going to end up all over chemistry and physics as well as geology.
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Percy Member Posts: 22391 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Looking back in the discussion to see where Christian's concern with magnesium comes from, I see that in Message 53 she said this, first quoting Walt Brown, then asking a question:
Christian writes: 3."If a microscopic limestone crystal grows in a magnesium-rich solution, magnesium ions will, under certain conditions, occupy or replace exactly half the calcium ion locations in limestone, forming a common mineral called dolomite" Since dolomite is not secreted by any known organism, where did the necessary magnesium come from to create the dolomite? The answer for Christian is that magnesium is a very common element on both land and sea. It is so common that some highway departments use magnesium chloride as a substitute for sodium chloride (ordinary salt) which can contaminate water tables. I'm not sure why this matters to her. Is she still questioning that most sedimenatary limestone layers are organic in origin? --Percy
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