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Author Topic:   Limestone Layers and the Flood
edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 76 of 128 (297153)
03-21-2006 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by AdminJar
03-21-2006 8:42 PM


Re: Do some of your comments help advance the discussion
Christian will form her own opinion of Walt Brown.
Will?
Let's try to stick to dealing with what he has actually has written.
Hey, I'm trying. But reading unsupported assertion after assertion is kind of boring.
There is pleanty to do thaere.
Good. Let's talk about the caverns... (crickets chirping)
Want more examples?
Comments on whether or not it's helped Christian or whether it was money well spent have nothing to do with the topic.
Just trying to elicit a response. All I hear about is how wonderful Walt's book is.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Christian
Member (Idle past 6255 days)
Posts: 157
Joined: 10-16-2005


Message 77 of 128 (297367)
03-22-2006 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by DBlevins
03-21-2006 12:13 AM


Re: Questions for you
DBlevins writes:
When sea level slowly drops it can leave behind shallow seas blocked from mixing with the main body of water and as the "inland" sea evaporates it becomes more briny When sea level slowly drops it can leave behind shallow seas blocked from mixing with the main body of water and as the "inland" sea evaporates it becomes more briny.
I don't see how water evaporating can cause magnesium to enter the sea.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by DBlevins, posted 03-21-2006 12:13 AM DBlevins has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by NosyNed, posted 03-22-2006 4:59 PM Christian has replied
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 78 of 128 (297375)
03-22-2006 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Christian
03-22-2006 4:45 PM


Magnesium Concentrations
I think someone pointed out that if water with a certain Mg concentration infiltrates limestone then a chemical reaction occurs.
I think someone also noted that seawater contains Mg; it is a reasonably common element.
Now what happens if you take cubic kilometers of seawater and remove a lot of water by evaporation? -- hint: Mg doesn't evaporate all that easily.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Christian, posted 03-22-2006 4:45 PM Christian has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 79 of 128 (297376)
03-22-2006 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by DBlevins
03-21-2006 12:13 AM


Re: Questions for you
The history of the earth is filled with transgressions and regressions of sea's over the continents. During high sea levels and long periods of time you can have a build up of limestone, expecially in warm shallow areas such as coral reefs. When sea level slowly drops it can leave behind shallow seas blocked from mixing with the main body of water and as the "inland" sea evaporates it becomes more briny. This briny sea can still percolate through the limestone and the Magnesium in this briny sea can start replacing some of the Calcium ions in the limestone. (as a side note, there is an area in Michigan iirc where such a large inland sea occured and we can see this in the rock record. Also in Texas, thus the high oil abundance there.) This chemical replacement of ions forms dolomite which is basically limestone, just that some of the calcium ions have been replaced with magnesium.
Except of course for the time factor, all such scenarios are quite consistent with what a Flood would likely have done -- left large inland seas for instance, which slowly evaporated or seeped into the ground. The flood would have left "shore lines" too in the process of receding. Also no doubt tides and wave action that covered a lot of distance across the continents as the flood receded.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-22-2006 05:04 PM

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 80 of 128 (297378)
03-22-2006 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Faith
03-22-2006 5:00 PM


Re: Questions for you
For someone who does not want to defend the flood you certainly do bring it up a lot.
Please provide support for your assertion that the flood is the cause of transgressive/regressive sequences that produce alternating layers of limestone and other fine grained sediment or go back to your stance of admitted inability to defend the flood.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 81 of 128 (297383)
03-22-2006 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Jazzns
03-22-2006 5:05 PM


Re: Questions for you
I believe it is a possibility, consistent with the idea of a flood. That's all I said. I'm sure geologists can come up with all kinds of OE-based objections. Then it's just a matter of finding a creationist geologist for battling out the interpretive scenarios, the possibilities, the conjectures, with scientific considerations because there's no way to PROVE any of it.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-22-2006 05:25 PM

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edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 82 of 128 (297390)
03-22-2006 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
03-22-2006 5:19 PM


Re: Questions for you
I believe it is a possibility, consistent with the idea of a flood. That's all I said. I'm sure geologists can come up with all kinds of OE-based objections. Then it's just a matter of finding a creationist geologist for battling out the interpretive scenarios, the possibilities, the conjectures, with scientific considerations because there's no way to PROVE any of it.
But creationist geologists won't come here will they? Why do you think that is? Could it be that there are extremely few of them? Why would that be?
Or could it be that they know they can't hold their own? Don't you feel the least bit betrayed by these people who won't lift a finger to help you? I'd say that creationist geologists have abandoned the field. In fact, I'd also say that they are dependent upon the layman's ignorance of geology. THey WANT you to remain ignorant of the subject.
And while we can't 'prove' anything in the sense that you seem to require, we can make an excellent case that there was no global flood. The creationists geologists know this. That is why they prefer to let non-geologists fight this battle.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 83 of 128 (297402)
03-22-2006 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
03-22-2006 5:19 PM


Re: Questions for you
Faith writes:
I believe it is a possibility, consistent with the idea of a flood.
What you need to do is explain how the alternating geologic layers and the record of transgressing and regressing shorelines are consistent with a flood. It may be obvious to you how a single global flood is consistent with the evidence, but it isn't obvious to anyone else, and that's why you have to explain it.
The reason no one else can see how a global flood could have produced the evidence we find is that Genesis tells us that the floods of the great deep rushed out and that it rained for 40 days and 40 nights. The water rose steadily until it was twenty feet above the highest mountains and flooded the earth for 150 days. And then God closed the floodgates of the heavens and the springs of the deep and sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded. There was only one transgression and one regression.
If we could focus on just a single mystery, how could a flood produce alternating types of sedimentary deposits? If we use the Grand Canyon as an example, from the top down we have layers in this order:
Limestone
Sandstone, limestone, gypsum
Sandstone
Shale
Sandstone
Limestone
Limestone
Limestone
Shale
Sandstone
How would a flood deposit these alternating layers?
--Percy

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Replies to this message:
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Ratel
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 128 (297409)
03-22-2006 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Percy
03-22-2006 6:28 PM


Re: Questions for you
Let me play "yahweh's advocate"- what if in the antediluvian world, the microorganisms that made up modern limestone deposits suddenly experienced an unprecedented surge of growth in the pre-flood and early flood stages, then, as the torrents dislodged mountain ranges, these vastly over-populated masses of organisms were buried by alternating landslides of sand and silt, preserving them as limestone...
alright, that probably has a million holes in it, here's a 100+ year old essay on chalk that methodically shows that chalk must be older than Adam: http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/CE8/Chalk.html
I don't know how much of what's in there has been superceded by the last century of geological advances, but it's a pretty nice explanation of the evidence to that date.

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DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3775 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 85 of 128 (297448)
03-22-2006 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Christian
03-22-2006 4:45 PM


Re: Questions for you
I don't see how water evaporating can cause magnesium to enter the sea.
To form dolomite by replacement
of calcite or aragonite (in the limestone) you need:
” Water of the right composition and
” A mechanism to move that water through
the limestone:
” Requires periodic flooding of an exposed tidal
flat or “sabkha” over a limestone
” Evaporation that causes evaporites (especially
gypsum, CaSO42H2O) to precipitate
” Two effects:
- increased density of brine, so it sinks through the
limestone
- increase in the Mg/Ca ratio of brine
as the Ca-depleted (Mg-rich) brine moves
through the limestone [Cc (CaCO3)] is replaced by
Dolomite (CaMg(CO3)2)
This mechanism is the one I outlined in This post.
Also, if you might read the link I provided in that same post (the part I'm asking you to read is short and sweet) you might get a better picture of what I was talking about. hint...there are some pictures describing the event in question on page 16 of the link.

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 Message 77 by Christian, posted 03-22-2006 4:45 PM Christian has not replied

  
Christian
Member (Idle past 6255 days)
Posts: 157
Joined: 10-16-2005


Message 86 of 128 (298767)
03-27-2006 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by NosyNed
03-22-2006 4:59 PM


Re: Magnesium Concentrations
NosyNed writes:
I think someone pointed out that if water with a certain Mg concentration infiltrates limestone then a chemical reaction occurs.
yes
NosyNed writes:
I think someone also noted that seawater contains Mg; it is a reasonably common element.
You have to remember that I have very little knowledge in this area. Could you please explain to me how magnesium gets into the seawater.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by NosyNed, posted 03-22-2006 4:59 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Coragyps, posted 03-27-2006 4:43 PM Christian has not replied
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 Message 89 by NosyNed, posted 03-27-2006 5:02 PM Christian has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 87 of 128 (298775)
03-27-2006 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Christian
03-27-2006 4:25 PM


Re: Magnesium Concentrations
Could you please explain to me how magnesium gets into the seawater.
Magnesium, as well as sodium, is very common in minerals as well as pretty soluble in water when in the compounds that exist in many of those minerals. Water eroding rocks in streams and rivers, or water circulating through "black smokers" and the like in the ocean floor, will pick up these (and other) elements and then hold them in solution. Calcium also dissolves, but a lot of it comes back out of solution, mostly as the calcium carbonate shells of many different kinds of marine creatures.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Christian, posted 03-27-2006 4:25 PM Christian has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 88 of 128 (298776)
03-27-2006 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Christian
03-27-2006 4:25 PM


Re: Magnesium Concentrations
Christian writes:
You have to remember that I have very little knowledge in this area. Could you please explain to me how magnesium gets into the seawater.
Erosive forces on land, such as weathering and rivers, cause erosion, the gradual but perpetual whittling away of the continents. The eventual destination of most eroded land is the oceans. Magnesium is contained in many minerals (it represents about 2.1% by weight of all minerals), and so it is carried to the sea with everything else that's eroded away.
Any material found on land should also be found in oceans. Magnesium is very common in both minerals and oceans.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Christian, posted 03-27-2006 4:25 PM Christian has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 89 of 128 (298781)
03-27-2006 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Christian
03-27-2006 4:25 PM


Does it matter?
In the discussion we are having does where the Mg came from matter? If you don't focus then you are going to end up all over chemistry and physics as well as geology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Christian, posted 03-27-2006 4:25 PM Christian has not replied

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 90 of 128 (298789)
03-27-2006 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by NosyNed
03-27-2006 5:02 PM


Re: Does it matter?
Looking back in the discussion to see where Christian's concern with magnesium comes from, I see that in Message 53 she said this, first quoting Walt Brown, then asking a question:
Christian writes:
3."If a microscopic limestone crystal grows in a magnesium-rich solution, magnesium ions will, under certain conditions, occupy or replace exactly half the calcium ion locations in limestone, forming a common mineral called dolomite"
Since dolomite is not secreted by any known organism, where did the necessary magnesium come from to create the dolomite?
The answer for Christian is that magnesium is a very common element on both land and sea. It is so common that some highway departments use magnesium chloride as a substitute for sodium chloride (ordinary salt) which can contaminate water tables.
I'm not sure why this matters to her. Is she still questioning that most sedimenatary limestone layers are organic in origin?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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