quote:
Originally posted by judge:
Do you really imagine that the peshitta calls Jesus the alpha and the omega??
No this is only in the greek!
Actually, the phrase is from Revelations (1:8, 1:11, 21:6, 22:13) so I find it odd that the peshitta includes it at all since:
[qs]Commentary: The Syriac Peshitta New Testament was a 3rd-4th c. translation from Greek, made on the basis of older Syriac translations. The present text comprises Luke 14-23, John, Acts, and the Epistles.
The Peshitta text does not include Revelation, which is not canonical in the Eastern Churches.
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.nb.no/baser/schoyen/4/4.1/415.html
Your objection seems rather odd in context. It makes me think you don't know what you are talking about. Care to clear this up?
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John it's about time you provided an example.
Judge, is there some reason you have decided to be an ass? If you have a good reason, please share it. I may well agree that such behavior is understandable. Otherwise... I rather like this type of thing, as do you. I think you will find that very few on this board share that interest, so you may consider at least marginal civility towards me.
quote:
Can you? Please can you provide one example. Perhaps you are right.
Mark 5:41
Christ instructs a girl, in aramaic, to rise. This instruction is then translated for the sake of the readers.
Several possibilities:
1) The aramaic was the original language and the translators inserted the definition when making the translation, presumably to preserve the exact words christ spoke. This does not seem likely because the translator only used this device a few times, rather than every time Christ spoke.
Lets say we assume an aramaic original, why would the translators choose to preserve only select phrases? If we start with an all aramaic text it doesn't make sense. Reading through an aramaic text the tendency would be to translate all of what christ said or preserve and define all of it-- much like modern translators highlight in red the supposed direct quotes of Christ.
2) This leads to the other possibility; that christ only spoke aramaic on occasion. Then if you assume a greek text all of christs words, including the aramaic words, are preserved in the original language, which require translation for the Greek speaking audience. This makes a lot more sense than option one. Then, when translated to aramaic, the translations could be dropped as superfluous which they certainly would be.
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One as I have pointed out this is just not true.
Yes, you have pointed this out and your reference appears to me to be on the losing end of the debate, as I have pointed out. At best your source is careless with the information. Here is what looks to be the relevant part.
Mesopotamian Syriac is one of this ancient group of Aramaic dialects which included the Galilean dialect that Jesus spoke. It was spoken in south western mesopotamia in the small kingdom of Osrhoene with its capital at Edessa. The earliest datable Syriac writings are from this kingdom. They are in the form of inscriptions found at Birecik, (near Edessa) dating from 6 AD, (Maricq 1962, Pirenne 1963). These early Syriac inscriptions demonstrate that the Syriac language and script existed before Jesus' ministry. Another first century Syriac inscription was found in Jerusalem and dates from about 49 AD, [6, 7]. Many second century pagan Syriac inscriptions have also been documented from mesopotamia, [6, 7]. Three legal documents have been discovered from later in the third century (dated 28 Dec 240, 1 Sept. 242 and 243, respectively). These were discovered in the Euphrates valley (Brock 1991, Drijvers 1972). Syriac was not only spoken in mesopotamia. In fact, Syriac was still spoken by the people of Palestine many years after the time of Jesus.
The author emphasizes that syriac was spoken during the time of Christ. No one debates this. But it didn't reach any promanance until 2-3 hundred years later, which make the assertion that it was a common language very odd.
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But even if it is, what would this prove?
It is possible to date a manuscript by looking at the script style and the dialect, just as you can look at a paper written 100 or 200 years ago and place it in time, by the dialect the author uses provided you have some other information-- like location.
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What I can only presume John is alluding to here is the script style.
Yes, and the script style of
estralango did not exist until around 300 AD.
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There have been several script styles used to write aramaic/syriac over the ages. One can write the same thing in more than one script.
That is a bit dismissive. Script styles are pretty good indicators of the time a text was written.
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This was a translation done for greek speakers.
Do you really think Jews in Israel spoke Greek?
Well, yes, as did everyone else in the region since Alexander the Great conquered it a couple hundred years BC.
What mass of greek speakers would be reading THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES if not the jews? Why make a greek translation if jews did not speak greek? Your objection is hard to comprehend.
quote:
Josephus seems to contradict this.
Yes, while writing in GREEK.
[qs]I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understand the elements of the Greek language, although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own tongue, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness; for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations, and so adorn their discourses with the smoothness of their periods; because they look upon this sort of accomplishment as common, not only to all sorts of free-men, but to as many of the servants as please to learn them.
Antiquities 20:11:2[qs]
Umm... Josephus says he can't pronounce Greek.
Did you notice that the free-men and slaves are all speaking greek? Ever notice that things that are considered common are usually, well, common?
oh... I found the thread where I and several others have discussed this aramaic original with you at length.
EvC Forum: Luke and Matthews geneologies------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com
[This message has been edited by John, 01-22-2003]
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