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Author Topic:   In the begining...... nothing.... unless infinite past.
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 58 of 79 (299340)
03-29-2006 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by New Cat's Eye
03-29-2006 10:51 AM


Re: I would rather bank on a god than ignore the severe contridiction to my logic.
Catholic Scientist
Unless you consider the creator a god with supernatural powers, then its different from the universe and could have properties that the universe could not
But if the qualities of God are supernatural then how can communication occur with the natural since this implies a natural means of alerting our physical senses?
You also mention magic. Could you explain to us just what the heck that means?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-29-2006 10:51 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 03-29-2006 12:35 PM sidelined has replied
 Message 61 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-29-2006 12:41 PM sidelined has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 62 of 79 (299374)
03-29-2006 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
03-29-2006 12:35 PM


Re: Supersets and subsets
jar
Can not Supernatural be a superset that includes natural as a subset?
I am not certain that mathematical definition as such applies here. That an object is a subset implies that the subset is contained within the superset by virtue of common members between the two. This would indicate that accessing the subset requires participation in the elements that make up that subset. Now one asks how does the information of the superset become known to the subset.
Now, since the means by which we gain information are through the subset{physical}then the supernatural{magic} cannot be affecting it since this would make it a part of the subset and, by definition, physical.
This does not mean that the supernatural does not exist just that it cannot affect the natural without altering its nature.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 03-29-2006 12:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-29-2006 2:36 PM sidelined has not replied
 Message 64 by jar, posted 03-29-2006 4:41 PM sidelined has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 75 of 79 (302271)
04-08-2006 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by jar
03-29-2006 4:41 PM


Re: Supersets and subsets
jar
that does not mean that those things we call natural might not be done supernaturally.
If they were done supernaturally then would they not, by definition, be supernatural? How would we tell the difference? If we could not then there is no sense in calling something natural correct?
Since we are able to discern natural things as bound by laws and the supernatural implies no such bounds I again fail to see if this holds true at least as natural being a result of the greater operation of supernatural.

Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.
Richard Feynman

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 Message 64 by jar, posted 03-29-2006 4:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 04-08-2006 9:55 AM sidelined has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 77 of 79 (302420)
04-08-2006 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by jar
04-08-2006 9:55 AM


Re: Supersets and subsets
jar
Jesus performs a miracle and turns water into wine. Now the water is completely natural. The wine is completely natural.
The wine cannot be considered natural since the components were not present in the water beforehand. How do we account for the violation of physical processes since we now have to account for the increase in mass of the water by the addition of almost 1000 new components such as ethyl alcohol,glycerol,tartric acid, etc..
Physical components have been added in violation of physical laws. The mass has increased by an amount related to the addition of these new components, and this mass increase without the input of energy {since energy is a natural phenomena of the world} would upset the mass energy balance that E=MC^2 implies.
l. All test show that they are just exactly what they seem to be, water and wine. They are just natural objects. But the miracle itself is supernatutral. It is not subject to test or examination.
What tests? Taste is not a test since the taste can easily fooled by substiuting wine for the water through misdirection. After all, Christ likely had everyone's trust and could easily have done a switch while alone.
You also contradict yourself here by first saying that there is a test {All test show} and then reverse with the statement {It is not subject to test or examination.}. I also contend that since no test was done of any real critical level that the report of supernatural by pre- scientific culture is far too much a stretch. However as you say faith in the occurence is indeed untestable.
I believe we have strayed far from the topic and perhaps we can engage ourselves in this discussion further through the chatroom. Good day sir.

This message is a reply to:
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