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Author Topic:   anti-abortion folks still get abortions
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 166 of 301 (299553)
03-30-2006 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by riVeRraT
03-29-2006 12:39 AM


have you gone?
Rat, I wonder if you have gone to the Planned Parenthood and National Right to Life websites and compared what each group is doing to prevent unwanted pregnancies and therefore reduce the need for abortion? Of particular note on the PP site are the education, international, and health info sections.
You had IMHO a very distorted view of which camp was doing what to reduce the incidence of abortion, so I just want to know if you have changed your view after learning more.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-30-2006 08:23 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by riVeRraT, posted 03-29-2006 12:39 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by riVeRraT, posted 03-30-2006 8:36 AM nator has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 167 of 301 (299554)
03-30-2006 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by macaroniandcheese
03-29-2006 2:08 PM


there is no life until it can survive on it's own.
You made it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-29-2006 2:08 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-30-2006 8:33 AM riVeRraT has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 168 of 301 (299555)
03-30-2006 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by riVeRraT
03-30-2006 8:26 AM


there is no life until it can survive on its own.
even the bible makes a big deal about drawing breath.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by riVeRraT, posted 03-30-2006 8:26 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by riVeRraT, posted 03-30-2006 8:37 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 169 of 301 (299556)
03-30-2006 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Firebird
03-29-2006 10:38 PM


Re: How could they?
If there is “life before life”, I would feel bad for disappointing a soul that wanted to be born.
I understand this concept.
If I light up a joint, and smoke it, I ain't high yet, will I be high in a few?
If a diseased limb could talk, would it ask to be amputated? Are you a vegetarian?
A deseased limb would scream to its owner for him to do something about it.
If an abortion is the same as murdering a baby, shouldn’ t the mother be prepared to risk her health to let it live?
This is where we are going to have to trust medicine. They aren't always right, but it is the best we can do. The intentions are good. If a woman is in danger of losing her life, then she should be the first priority, not the child. While some will argue that all pregnancy carry a risk, some are riskier than others.
But the health reasons may not be limited to just the mother.
It's a very tough call. My freinds daughter just had a baby with down syndrome. The doctors wanted to abort, but they said no. They aren't even really heavy believers. The baby was born with down syndrome, but it wasn't as severe as the doctors had predicted. The baby is beautiful.
MY own step child, was born premature. The doctors said to pull the plug, said he would be nothing more than a vegatable.
He's 22 now, and he the best kid I ever meet in my life. I call him the walking truth. He is handicap with hearing, speech, learning and some minor health issues. But he managed to pass a life guard test, and be a life guard. He is a great person.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Firebird, posted 03-29-2006 10:38 PM Firebird has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Firebird, posted 03-30-2006 9:04 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 170 of 301 (299557)
03-30-2006 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by nator
03-30-2006 8:23 AM


Re: have you gone?
Ok, I could be wrong, I'll check it out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by nator, posted 03-30-2006 8:23 AM nator has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 171 of 301 (299558)
03-30-2006 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by macaroniandcheese
03-30-2006 8:33 AM


Don't even bring the bible into it.
Cause we can back up into virginity again.
Be fruitful....
My views on abortion are not from the bible. I do not want to force my religious views on people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-30-2006 8:33 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Silent H, posted 03-30-2006 10:00 AM riVeRraT has replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 172 of 301 (299566)
03-30-2006 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by riVeRraT
03-30-2006 8:37 AM


You didn't answer my post #153.
I do not want to force my religious views on people.
What do you want to impose on people? What punishment do you think people who engage in abortion should have inflicted upon them? Is it as serious as murder?
Whatever your answer, why are you not trying to have that done to you and your gf first? Why are you not in the front line saying society needs to punish you most severely to set an example for others?

holmes
"Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." (Lovecraft)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by riVeRraT, posted 03-30-2006 8:37 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by riVeRraT, posted 03-30-2006 10:39 AM Silent H has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 173 of 301 (299570)
03-30-2006 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Silent H
03-30-2006 10:00 AM


What do you want to impose on people?
We live in a free country, but what does that mean? Isn't it just a state of mind? Are we really free? What gives us our freedom?
It's what we think as a people that determines our freedom. We decide as a country what is right and wrong, not science, not religion, not some silly idea that as long as there is consent, then it is ok. It's our own personal subjective view that determines what we are as a people. Of course our views are based on many things, but it is our interpretation of those things.
I do not want to live in a society, or raise my kids in one where the respect of the sanctity of life, and the process that starts it is nothing more than trash and selfish feelings. We as humans are born with desires. If it's evolution, then our desires stem from our natural instincts to carry on as a race. If it's God, then it's a gift from Him. Either way, there is no respect for the whole thing when we can just rip babies from wombs as a form of birth control.
I like the taste of pot. If I could just taste it and not get high, I would. But that's not the case, if I light up, I will be getting high, and all the effects that go along with it. The same can be said about intercourse. It's just the way things are. It's a basic form of living. It's how we got here. It's how we evolved, it's how we were designed, whatever. We are forgeting were we come from when we belittle the whole process to turning the womb into a food blender. If we say it's ok, then what is next? How much more respect will we let go?
I know I am probably not expressing this as cleary as I should, but it is what it is. Having been through it, I do speak from experience. Yes it is my view, and I am entitled to it.
Maybe people should be more concerned about "keeping it in their pants" and having a society that thinks that way, than telling me what to do with my views. It's a free society, and we can choose how it works. we choose what is morally right and wrong.
Teens should be being peer pressured into staying a virgin, not losing their virginity.
Parents should be treating their kids well, and with love.
Monogamy is better than promiscuity.
These kind of things, while you make think I am forcing them on you, are things learned the hard way. If we were truely free, and could do anything we want, this world could get ugly. Should we live like cavemen?
If the goal was to have a world that followed these ideas, then VD would be decreases, unwanted pregnacies would decrease, phsycological problems would decrease. And it wouldn't cost a penny.
Abortion is a band-aid for much deeper problems, there is no denying it. Giving people an out, does not cure the problems, it only promotes it. It plays games with life.
It's funny, when I asked someone who was for abortion, and into science about living things, like ants, and other lesser life forms, there response was to have respect for all living things. But not life in the womb.
People say it isn't life until it can support itself. That is the biggest bunch of BS ever!
If I took a tropical bird, and let it go in the north pole, what would happen to it?
You might say, well normally that bird would never be there in the north pole.
Well I say normally, and baby would not try to get out of its womb, unless you interfered.
Saying it is not life is not a logical arguement, and I won't accept it.
I think I am done with this thread, I stick by my first statement about the original article, and that is turning people into hypocrites, without knowing the reasons why they did what they did, is not a logical arguement for abortion, it's a smear tatic, that's all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Silent H, posted 03-30-2006 10:00 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by FliesOnly, posted 03-30-2006 11:25 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 175 by Silent H, posted 03-30-2006 12:10 PM riVeRraT has replied

FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 174 of 301 (299577)
03-30-2006 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by riVeRraT
03-30-2006 10:39 AM


But you still haven't answered
Hi riVeRrat:
I've been following (and not responding) to this thread for quite some time. When I first saw that you had responded to Holmes, I was hoping to read your reply to his question about what punishment you and your gf should be given. I see, however, that once again you avoided the question.
Now, in all honesty, I have lost track of your position. You oppose ALL abortions? Some abortions? What about teaching a thorough course in sex education in our Jr High and High Schools? I mean come on...you can't be against that...can you? Wouldn't that likely solve many of the "problems" you mentioned in your rant? Unwanted pregnancies, STDs, abortions, etc?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by riVeRraT, posted 03-30-2006 10:39 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by riVeRraT, posted 03-30-2006 2:31 PM FliesOnly has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 175 of 301 (299581)
03-30-2006 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by riVeRraT
03-30-2006 10:39 AM


That was an interesting post, but didn't really answer any of my questions.
Maybe people should be more concerned about "keeping it in their pants" and having a society that thinks that way, than telling me what to do with my views.
No one is telling you to pull it out of your pants, nor that you shouldn't have the views you do about what to do in life. Conversely you ARE suggesting that society should tell me what to do with my views. That's not really fair is it?
Teens should be being peer pressured into staying a virgin, not losing their virginity.
Parents should be treating their kids well, and with love.
Monogamy is better than promiscuity.
I agree with the middle point, but not the others. There are certainly no factual bases for your suggestions.
These kind of things, while you make think I am forcing them on you, are things learned the hard way. If we were truely free, and could do anything we want, this world could get ugly. Should we live like cavemen?
Uh, well whether they are learned the hard way or not, if you force people to do them by law then you are forcing them on me. As it is people have not learned what you seem to have learned the hard way. I don't believe if people were left to do what they want that this world would get ugly, certainly no uglier than a world with one group trying to impose one set of morals on everyone else.
And what does this have to do with living like cavemen? Cavemen had low technology, and clearly they survived whatever their moral systems were. Being free to choose would not lower my technology, knowledge about the world, nor make us less able to survive as the cavemen did.
If the goal was to have a world that followed these ideas, then VD would be decreases, unwanted pregnacies would decrease, phsycological problems would decrease. And it wouldn't cost a penny.
It would have to cost plenty. You'd have police, court systems, and prisons to deal with everyone that didn't agree with you. Oh yeah, and you'd still have to have doctors for diseases and psychological problems, including for the health and psych problems associated with living in a repressive environment.
Is there a reason we could not reduce STDs, unwanted pregnancies, and psychological problems by having better medical systems and encouraging people to feel more at ease with their sexuality?

holmes
"Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." (Lovecraft)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by riVeRraT, posted 03-30-2006 10:39 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by riVeRraT, posted 03-30-2006 2:35 PM Silent H has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 176 of 301 (299603)
03-30-2006 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by FliesOnly
03-30-2006 11:25 AM


Re: But you still haven't answered
I was hoping to read your reply to his question about what punishment you and your gf should be given. I see, however, that once again you avoided the question.
I don't know if you have really been following then. Maybe read again everything I wrote?
What punishment? We didn't do anything wrong. We did what was legally allowable. It was like 15 years ago. We did it, because of the society we live in, and because it was legal, it tends to make it morally acceptable. I was about 25, and still really young, so I don't think I really knew better. But I learned quickly, because immediatly afterwards, I felt guilt, and I was origianlly for it! She was my fiancee at the time, and things were starting to get a little shakey, so I didn't want to have a kid, unless I was going to be with him/her and raise him/her. I did not want to have to deal with this woman in the future, and tie myself to her for a long time. It was all selfish reasons. The fact remains, I had sex, and she got pregnant. I feel pain from it, isn't that punishment enough? There are still times today that I cry about it.
I had to learn the hard way, becuase I did something stupid and selfish, and maybe I wasn't educated enough?
Now, in all honesty, I have lost track of your position. You oppose ALL abortions? Some abortions? What about teaching a thorough course in sex education in our Jr High and High Schools? I mean come on...you can't be against that...can you? Wouldn't that likely solve many of the "problems" you mentioned in your rant? Unwanted pregnancies, STDs, abortions, etc?
At the end of my last post, I mentioned my position.
I am against abortion as a form of birth control.
I am not against condoms, sex ed, whatever.
But if you stick it in, your taking a risk, nothing is 100%, not even birth control pills. My first one was on birth control, and she got pregnant.
so the real problem is intercourse then. isn't it?
I currently have a vasectomy now, so I would be a hypocrite if I was against all that. I am not sure God would approve of it, but I did it before I really believed in God, and I hope He will understand if I am wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by FliesOnly, posted 03-30-2006 11:25 AM FliesOnly has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-30-2006 2:49 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 177 of 301 (299604)
03-30-2006 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Silent H
03-30-2006 12:10 PM


There are certainly no factual bases for your suggestions.
That's what they taught in sex-ed. monogamy is best.
virginity clearly lessens the risk of getting VD, and totally eliminates the chance that you will get pregnant, that's factual.
The rest is there, you can pick and choose what you want to accept from my posts. This would go on forever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Silent H, posted 03-30-2006 12:10 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-30-2006 2:46 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 185 by Silent H, posted 03-30-2006 4:38 PM riVeRraT has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 178 of 301 (299607)
03-30-2006 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by riVeRraT
03-30-2006 2:35 PM


there is absolutely no evidence that monogamy is best. lots of people around the world practice both polyandry and polygyny. there is no evidence that this has a negative effect on their cultures. there are men in cultures that still have bride-prices who will share a wife with a brother or close friend until they can each afford their own. having a wife in their culture enables them to have someone to assist them by feeding them while they work. this improves their output and their income. this is beneficial to them in spite of not being able to afford separate wives. in cultures that practice polygyny, there is often a high pregnancy mortality rate. so it is easier for a man to have enough children if he has many wives. these tend to be sheephearding peoples who need lots of people to watch the flocks. further, in these cultures, there is less feeling of ownership of the spouse and so jealousy isn't a problem. monogamy leads to jealousy which is very destructive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by riVeRraT, posted 03-30-2006 2:35 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by riVeRraT, posted 03-30-2006 4:10 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 179 of 301 (299608)
03-30-2006 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by riVeRraT
03-30-2006 2:31 PM


Re: But you still haven't answered
What punishment? We didn't do anything wrong.
that's all i'm saying. so if you didn't do anything wrong, stop telling the rest of us that we are.
so the real problem is intercourse then. isn't it?
no, because then you shouldn't be having non-procreative sex with your wife. and that's just silly. just the same for me and the boyfriend i love. it may end up being a temporary 'marriage'. but i am faithful and that's what matters. there's no paperwork and i don't wanna squirt out a brat. but no different than you.
I am not sure God would approve of it, but I did it before I really believed in God, and I hope He will understand if I am wrong.
the only thing that might support that is that weird verse about god killing the guy who pulled out. and that was because he sinned against his brother by not providing his brother an heir. not because he used the rhythm method.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 03-30-2006 02:51 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by riVeRraT, posted 03-30-2006 2:31 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by ringo, posted 03-30-2006 3:05 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 184 by riVeRraT, posted 03-30-2006 4:15 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 180 of 301 (299612)
03-30-2006 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by macaroniandcheese
03-30-2006 2:49 PM


Re: But you still haven't answered
brennakimi writes:
he sinned against his brother by not providing his brother an heir.
Interesting tidbit of cultural lore, isn't it?
Let's go back to the Old Testament ways - shut down the fertility clinics and line up the brothers.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-30-2006 2:49 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by macaroniandcheese, posted 03-30-2006 3:11 PM ringo has replied

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