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Author Topic:   Limestone Layers and the Flood
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1015 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 17 of 128 (294955)
03-13-2006 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Percy
03-13-2006 8:00 AM


Re: Carbonate limestones???
I'll have to look it up, but I know those types of carbonates as freshwater carbonates - deposited in lakes, caves, springs, etc.

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1015 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 19 of 128 (295021)
03-13-2006 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Minnemooseus
03-13-2006 6:05 PM


Re: Other calcite deposits
I think Faith quoted me as stating 80% of sed rocks were limestone. I don't remember stating such a thing. I did state limestone makes up a significant portion of marine sed rocks, and 10% hardly qualifies as significant. I'll have to look that up, my source may be old. Ten percent sounds low to me, however, although if we're talking terrestrial + marine, that could be correct.
I'll see if I can find a breakdown. It's in one of my books.
Abe: I found a number of 15%. Limestone + dolomite accounts for 15% of the entire sedimentary rock package - terrestrial and marine - of which 66% is sedimentary and 34% is igneous + metamorphic. I'm interested in the total percentage of carbonate in marine rocks.
This message has been edited by roxrkool, 03-13-2006 09:56 PM

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1015 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 45 of 128 (296480)
03-18-2006 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by NosyNed
03-18-2006 10:28 AM


Re: The micrographs
The problem, nosy, is that while thin-sections of limestone will undoubtedly show microfossils, much limestone is also comprised of recrystalized (during diagenesis) calcite, micritic calcite, sparry calcite, and broken shells too small to see. Micrite is so minute it appears black in thin-section, sparry calcite is coarser grained calcite. In addition, the algae itself precipitates carbonate as mud, so not all carbonate or calcite will look like little shells.
So if Christian is expecting thin-sections or other photos to convince her that limestone is primarily organic, it's not going to happen.
However, THIS LINK has some excellent images of carbonate rocks (click on all the carbonate image links) and THIS SITE has a pretty good description of limestone.

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1015 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 54 of 128 (296540)
03-18-2006 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by edge
03-18-2006 7:19 PM


Re: Limestone composition.
Nosy: Can you describe this in more detail please?
edge: Not sure what Rox means here.
I could be wrong, but it's my understanding that algae make/precipitate carbonate, which results in carbonate mud when 'released.' Later, this carbonate mud makes up a portion (all??) of the micritic component of limestone.
Although this is not something I remember reading, I found this on the link I posted above:
"The algae contain minute aragonite needles that are released on death and accumulate as carbonate mud."
I always thought the carbonate ooze released by the algae was part of the digestion process, similar to fecal pellets, but the quote above states differently.
And I agree with your last statement about carbonate petrology practically being it's own field. At grad school we had a carbonate petrologist (assoc. prof.) who worked closely with the oil people. There were entire classes devoted to carbonate petrology.
This message has been edited by roxrkool, 03-18-2006 10:07 PM

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1015 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 96 of 128 (298986)
03-28-2006 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Christian
03-28-2006 11:56 AM


Re: The Dolomite Problem
Dolomite has indeed been a problem for geologists from quite some time, but here are some recent findings regarding the 'dolomite problem:'
ABSTRACT
We report low-temperature microbial precipitation of dolomite in dilute natural waters from both field and laboratory experiments. In a freshwater aquifer, microorganisms colonize basalt and nucleate nonstoichiometric dolomite on cell walls. In the laboratory, ordered dolomite formed at near-equilibrium conditions from groundwater with molar Mg:Ca ratios of <1; dolomite was absent in sterile experiments. Geochemical and microbiological data suggest that methanogens are the dominant metabolic guild in this system and are integral to dolomite precipitation. We hypothesize that the attached microbial consortium reacts with the basalt surface, releasing Mg and Ca into solution, which drives dolomite precipitation via nucleation on the cell wall. These findings provide insight into the long-standing dolomite problem and suggest a fundamental role for microbial processes in the formation of dolomite across a wide range of environmental conditions.
citation: Roberts, Jennifer A, Bennett, Philip C, Gonzalez, Luis A, Macpherson, G L, Milliken, Kitty L, 2004, Microbial precipitation of dolomite in methanogenic groundwater, Geology, vol.32, no.4, pp.277-280.
and
ABSTRACT
The failure to precipitate dolomite experimentally at low temperatures or from seawater in which it is both supersaturated and the most thermodynamically favoured carbonate phase, together with its unequal distribution through geological time relative to limestone, are all aspects of the "dolomite problem", a subject of continuing controversy. A plethora of physicochemical models has been invoked to explain sedimentary dolomite formation, none of which satisfactorily addresses the basic problem of how kinetic barriers are overcome. These barriers are related to the disproportionate distribution of the component ions of dolomite, cation hydration and ion complexing in seawater. Competing claims for the effectiveness of sulphate as an inhibitor to dolomite formation further confuse the debate, although there are many reports of modern dolomite associated with bacterial sulphate reduction. The uppermost sediments in some lakes of the Coorong region of South Australia comprise almost 100% dolomite, and afford an ideal opportunity to study this association. Samples of lake waters taken during late evaporative stages of several shallow hypersaline dolomitic lakes showed high initial sulphate concentrations, high pH and high carbonate alkalinities. Pore waters from unlithified lake sediment cores directly below the lake-water sample sites showed a substantial and progressive decrease in sulphate concentrations with depth, coupled with an exponential increase in carbonate concentrations, through the sulphate-reduction zone. By the end of the evaporative cycle, sulphate was entirely removed. High bacterial counts on cultures from the sediment cores, and sulphur isotope values consistent with "bacterial" fractionation in lake waters, indicate that the chemical changes in ambient water chemistry can be related to active bacterial sulphate reduction. Laboratory experiments using sulphate reducers cultured from the lake sediments and simulating the anoxic microbiogeochemical environment of the lakes, have resulted in the precipitation of dolomite, demonstrating that bacterial sulphate reduction in the Coorong lakes modifies lake-water and pore-water chemistry so that dolomite precipitation is kinetically favoured. Given the wide spatial and temporal distribution of sulphate-reducing bacteria, and their frequent association, both past and present, with cyanobacteria, it is likely that this process was more widespread in the geological past when dolomite was found in far greater abundance than limestone. Bacterial sulphate reduction may thus have played an important role in dolomite formation throughout the geological record.
citation: Wright, David T, Wacey, David, 2004, Sedimentary dolomite; a reality check, Monograph: The geometry and petrogenesis of dolomite hydrocarbon reservoirs, Geological Society Special Publications, vol.235, pp.65-74.
Sulfate-reducing bacteria seem to be a front-runner in the production of dolomite. Changes in seawater chemistry through time have probably made it impossible or difficult for SRB to force dolomite precipitation, but apparently this is not the case in some hypersaline and freshwater lakes. These findings still do not rule out the possibility of dolomite replacement of calcite, however.

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1015 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 111 of 128 (299561)
03-30-2006 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Percy
03-30-2006 8:50 AM


Re: One small question.
In some waters the concentration of calcium carbonate in the sea water is high enough to precipitate directly out of solution onto the seafloor. This is much more common in groundwater environments such as caves, but it apparently can happen in the ocean, too.
Micrite is a significant component of carbonates, but it's origin is debated.
quote:
Origin of Micrite = Lime Mud
Micrite is lime mud. It exists in modern environments as extremely small aragonite crystals (needles) that can only be seen clearly with a scanning electron microscope. If you were to see the sediment, however, it would have the consistency of mud.
Aragonite is a variety of CaCO3 and is a common component of pearls and some shells. Aragonite is less stable than calcite, however, and more or less quickly recrystallizes to calcite.
The orgin of micrite has a long history of debate. Originally it was thought to be exclusively of chemical origin, precipitating directly out of supersaturated sea water. During the 1970's and 1980's evidence and opinion steadily shifted all the way to a biochemical origin for micrite - the sediment coming from the breakdown of calcareous algae skeletons which live abundantly in modern carbonate environments.
More recent evidence is pointing back to some micrite being of chemical origin. This is one of those problems that is yet to have a definitive solution. Micrite, though, is probably a mixture of chemical and biochemical origin.
By the time we see the rock, however, the aragonite/calcite needles have been so recrystallized and cemented that the original nature has been destroyed. Thus, the question of micrite origin is the focus of study of recent carbonates.
Source: Origin of micrite

This message has been edited by roxrkool, 03-30-2006 09:13 AM

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1015 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 118 of 128 (299657)
03-30-2006 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Christian
03-30-2006 5:25 PM


Re: One small question.
Actually, I did not personally make that statement, it was quoted from the link provided.
I'm not a carbonate geologist, but it is my understanding that while there used to be a lot of debate as the the origin of micrite, these days, most carbonate geologists seem to agree that micrite is primarily composed of the altered remains of aragonitic algal skeletons.
This is likely due to the amount of sampling and coring of modern oceanic sediment, which show appreciable amounts of aragonitic needles. These needles later alter to calcite, which is a more stable form of CaCO3, to form the limy mud called micrite.
However, no one can yet deny that supersaturation results in some carbonate precipitation in marine settings, but from what I've read, carbonate geologists don't believe supersaturation can contribute as much micritic carbonate as that derived from algal skeletons.
I found one paper from 1999 written by a microbiogeologist, but I can hardly understand the thing. It does state the following at the end, however:
Thus, apart from (probably mythical) purely evaporitic and autotrophic ones, most limestones must be considered as principally of heterotrophic bacterial origin. As the carbon of limestones is issued from organic matter, bacterial heterotrophic carbonatogenesis appears as a fundamental phenomenon in the relationships between atmosphere and lithosphere during the biogeological evolution of the Earth.
SOURCE: Camoin, Gilbert F, 1999, Ca-carbonates precipitation and limestone genesis; the microbiogeologist point of view, in Special issue: Microbial mediation in carbonate diagenesis,Sedimentary Geology, vol.126, no.1-4, pp.9-23.
I THINK it's saying most limestone is biogenically-derived, but I could be wrong, I had a hard time following the bio stuff.
Here is the whole thing for those more knowledgeable of the terminology - maybe they can interpret:
Abstract
Experiments show that the production of carbonate particles by heterotrophic bacteria follows different ways. In heterotrophy, the passive carbonatogenesis is generated by modifications of the medium that lead to the accumulation of carbonate and bicarbonate ions and to the precipitation of solid particles. It is induced by several metabolic pathways of the nitrogen cycle (ammonification of amino-acids, degradation of urea and uric acid, dissimilatory reduction of nitrates) and of the sulphur cycle (dissimilatory reduction of sulphates). The active carbonatogenesis is independent of the mentioned metabolic pathways. The carbonate particles are produced by ionic exchanges through the cell membrane following still poorly known mechanisms. In autotrophy, non-methylotrophic methanogenesis and cyanobacterial photosynthesis also may contribute to the precipitation of carbonates (autotrophic carbonates). As carbonatogenesis is neither restricted to particular taxonomic groups of bacteria nor to specific environments, it has been an ubiquitous phenomenon since Precambrian times. Carbonatogenesis is the response of heterotrophic bacterial communities to an enrichment of the milieu in organic matter. After a phase of latency, there is an exponential increase of bacterial numbers together with the accumulation of metabolic end-products. These induce a pH increase and an accumulation of carbonate and hydrogenocarbonate ions in the medium. This phase ends into a steady state when most part of the initial enrichment is consumed and there is a balance between death and growth in bacterial populations. Particulate carbonatogenesis occurs during the exponential phase and ends more or less after the beginning of the steady state. The active carbonatogenesis seems to start first and to be followed by the passive one which induces the growth of initially produced particles. In eutrophic conditions, the first solid products are patches that appear on the surface of the bacterial bodies and coalesce until forming a rigid coating and/or particles excreted from the cell. All these tiny particles assemble into biomineral aggregates which often display "precrystalline" structures. These aggregates grow and form biocrystalline build-ups which progressively display more crystalline structures with growth. In oligotrophic conditions, the primary solid products are rapidly smoothed in the crystalline structure and leave no trace. In present aqueous environments, apart from deep ocean, the potential efficiency of heterotrophic bacterial carbonatogenesis in Ca-carbonate sedimentation is much higher than autotrophic or abiotic processes. It much more likely accounts for extensive apparently abiotic limestone formation than any of the latter. As far as biodetrital particles are concerned, it may be observed that the shells and tests of organisms are built from the activity of cellular organites which are nowadays considered by a number of biologists as endosymbiotic bacteria. Thus, apart from (probably mythical) purely evaporitic and autotrophic ones, most limestones must be considered as principally of heterotrophic bacterial origin. As the carbon of limestones is issued from organic matter, bacterial heterotrophic carbonatogenesis appears as a fundamental phenomenon in the relationships between atmosphere and lithosphere during the biogeological evolution of the Earth.

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 1015 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 124 of 128 (299767)
03-31-2006 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Percy
03-31-2006 8:54 AM


FYI

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