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John
Inactive Member


Message 228 of 239 (29260)
01-16-2003 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by nator
01-16-2003 8:20 AM


quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
I think the point is that it is not REASONABLE to assume it exists without evidence.

Indeed that is the point, schraf. Gene can't seem to get his head around that. And rather than answer this directly he has started on the bizarre "agnostics can't determine what it reasonable" line of, dare I say, reasoning.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


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zipzip
Inactive Member


Message 229 of 239 (29467)
01-18-2003 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by nator
01-16-2003 8:20 AM


Actually you bring up a good point. The origin of the Santa Claus legend can be traced to an actual person -- St. Nicholas, bishop of a Turkish city called Myra during the 4th century AD. The legend of Kris Kringle is related and is a mangling of the German 'Kristkindl' or Christ child.

So Santa Claus does exist in a manner of speaking (although is not alive in our time) and his physical remains probably exist somewhere in Asia Minor. This illustrates an interesting point -- oral tradition is a powerful conveyor of knowledge that is often based in fact. Written word is even more powerful, allowing facts to pass nearly unmolested throughout the world and through time. Fascinating.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by John, posted 01-18-2003 10:23 AM zipzip has responded

John
Inactive Member


Message 230 of 239 (29491)
01-18-2003 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by zipzip
01-18-2003 3:33 AM


quote:
Originally posted by zipzip:
Actually you bring up a good point. The origin of the Santa Claus legend can be traced to an actual person -- St. Nicholas, bishop of a Turkish city called Myra during the 4th century AD. The legend of Kris Kringle is related and is a mangling of the German 'Kristkindl' or Christ child.

So Santa Claus does exist in a manner of speaking (although is not alive in our time) and his physical remains probably exist somewhere in Asia Minor. This illustrates an interesting point -- oral tradition is a powerful conveyor of knowledge that is often based in fact. Written word is even more powerful, allowing facts to pass nearly unmolested throughout the world and through time. Fascinating.


I too enjoy learning the origins of our myths, but this really is beside the point as far as this debate goes.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by zipzip, posted 01-18-2003 3:33 AM zipzip has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by zipzip, posted 01-19-2003 1:51 AM John has responded

zipzip
Inactive Member


Message 231 of 239 (29542)
01-19-2003 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by John
01-18-2003 10:23 AM


No, it is germaine to the discussion. Santa Claus was held up as an example of pure myth, even though his existence appears to be based in actual history. My point is that not all old stories should be treated the same, because many old stories may have a basis in fact and may teach us something instructive. The decision to use our faculties for judicious (and if needed, subtle) discrimination is key if this discussion is to lead us anwhere except deeper into ignorance.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by John, posted 01-18-2003 10:23 AM John has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by John, posted 01-19-2003 1:06 PM zipzip has not yet responded
 Message 235 by nator, posted 01-20-2003 10:01 AM zipzip has responded

John
Inactive Member


Message 232 of 239 (29575)
01-19-2003 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by zipzip
01-19-2003 1:51 AM


quote:
Originally posted by zipzip:
No, it is germaine to the discussion. Santa Claus was held up as an example of pure myth, even though his existence appears to be based in actual history. My point is that not all old stories should be treated the same, because many old stories may have a basis in fact and may teach us something instructive. The decision to use our faculties for judicious (and if needed, subtle) discrimination is key if this discussion is to lead us anwhere except deeper into ignorance.

But I am really not talking about the old story, but about the mythical Santa Claus-- the guy who lives at the North Pole, has elves who make toys and flies through the air on Christmas Eve in a sleigh pulled by magical reindeer.

It doesn't really matter what you put into the blank. It can be something entirely made up.

If you want to argue that the idea of God is a mythologized version of some old story, I'd agree. I'm sure it is. I doubt such a view is good for the faith though.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 340 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 233 of 239 (29659)
01-20-2003 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by shilohproject
12-20-2002 11:27 AM


quote:

One exception: Love. Who can explain to me why my heart soars when my daughter tells me that I have a thin spot on top of my head?

Shiloh


Love is a part of social bonding, and has evolved just as all other emotions have evolved.

Feelings of affection and protectiveness towards offspring is not exclusive to humans by any means; it is common among large numbers of mammals and birds.

We are also very heavily influenced by our cultures that love is a value and that we express it and receive it in certain ways.

It doesn't have to be magic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by shilohproject, posted 12-20-2002 11:27 AM shilohproject has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 340 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 234 of 239 (29662)
01-20-2003 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by zipzip
12-20-2002 7:39 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by zipzip:
[B]Shiloh, I agree mostly about bad things happening and it not being God's direct action. But almost any Christian will tell you that God has intervened directly in their lives, and is a real presence to them. Remember the scripture where Elijah waits for God and the storm and the earthquake pass, but he is not in either of those? Instead he is a quiet voice; I think that is how God is most evident in the lives of most people.

I don't think the huge catastrophic interventions we like to think about when we hear the word 'miracle' happen very often. But at some point they will again -- the Bible says Christ is coming back in person, and if he does that should qualify as direct intervention.

[/QUOTE]

And yet when people are saved from some horrible fate, they very frequently proclaim it a miracle, God's will, or "nothing happens by accident."

Even professional athletes kneel and thank God when they score a touchdown or whatever.

This belief that God gives personal blessings and "saves" or helps people very directly is extremely prevelant.

It frankly disgusted me that Christians who survived the 9/11 attack talked about how they were saved by the grace of God.

What about all of those people who died horrible deaths? Did God not like them as much?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by zipzip, posted 12-20-2002 7:39 PM zipzip has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by zipzip, posted 01-22-2003 9:03 PM nator has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 340 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 235 of 239 (29663)
01-20-2003 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by zipzip
01-19-2003 1:51 AM


quote:
Originally posted by zipzip:
No, it is germaine to the discussion. Santa Claus was held up as an example of pure myth, even though his existence appears to be based in actual history. My point is that not all old stories should be treated the same, because many old stories may have a basis in fact and may teach us something instructive. The decision to use our faculties for judicious (and if needed, subtle) discrimination is key if this discussion is to lead us anwhere except deeper into ignorance.

Well, the way I meant it was, "Do you believe that Santa Claus, the big fat old man who comes down chimneys on Christmas night and puts presents under the tree for all the good boys and girls and has a sleigh pulled by eight tiny flying reindeer really exists?

There is no evidence for THAT Santa.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by zipzip, posted 01-19-2003 1:51 AM zipzip has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by zipzip, posted 01-22-2003 9:05 PM nator has not yet responded

  
zipzip
Inactive Member


Message 236 of 239 (29952)
01-22-2003 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by nator
01-20-2003 9:53 AM


Schraf, that was the point about Elijah and God's presence more often being the quiet voice of instruction and encouragement that speaks to us through the routine of our lives, rather that the thunderous miraculous things that really do not have God in them at all.

The Bible says that God's thoughts are higher than our thoughts...it may not always be apparent to us what is a blessing and what is not at least not until much later. Just like children with loving parents, we may not understand until much later how God's influence and actions have helped us. As one involved with the medical profession I have seen many times how death itself, natural death, can be a blessing to one who is suffering.

I don't know about the spiritual lives of all the folks that died on 9/11 -- but I do know that they were killed by other people and none of those deaths was in God's plan (it was a result of willful disobedience of God's instruction (=sin) --> murder). The ones that were saved by circumstance may in fact have been saved by God or not as far as direct intervention is concerned. I also know that Christians died during 9/11 and I grieve for their families. But if what Christ says about salvation and eternal life is true, then what Paul said --"for me to live is Christ and to die is gain" makes death for a Christian just another transition and not something to fear.

The Bible makes it clear that God cares first about our final destination -- with him or not for eternity -- and the means by which we get there may still be important but is secondary.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by nator, posted 01-20-2003 9:53 AM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by shilohproject, posted 01-23-2003 1:32 AM zipzip has not yet responded

zipzip
Inactive Member


Message 237 of 239 (29953)
01-22-2003 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by nator
01-20-2003 10:01 AM


Well....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by nator, posted 01-20-2003 10:01 AM nator has not yet responded

shilohproject
Inactive Member


Message 238 of 239 (29978)
01-23-2003 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by zipzip
01-22-2003 9:03 PM


quote:
Originally by zipzip:
I also know that Christians died in 9/11, and I grieve for their families.

zip,
From the nature of your earlier posts I'm guessing that you grieve for the families of the non-christians as well. Is this correct? if so, can you extend that to the men who highjacked the planes? Or thir families?

-Shiloh


This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by zipzip, posted 01-22-2003 9:03 PM zipzip has not yet responded

Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3883
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 239 of 239 (29980)
01-23-2003 1:56 AM


I'm declaring this topic terminally off-topic, and closing it.

Adminnemooseus

------------------
{mnmoose@lakenet.com}


  
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