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Author Topic:   General discussion of moderation procedures: The Consequtive Consecution Sequel
Faith
Member
Posts: 30990
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 302 (299595)
03-30-2006 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by AdminAsgara
03-26-2006 9:01 PM


TIME TO CALL JAR ON HIS NONSENSE, EVC
Robin's issue seems to be this post in a totally different thread from a week ago.

I inadvertently replied to robin instead of a general reply, but it was a regular ol' "lets stay on topic" message. The thread had begun to revolve around what's "wrong" with theistic evolution and jar's beliefs instead of the topic of "What evidence absolutely rules out a Creator"

I won't judge whether asgara simply misdirected her general admin warning about being off topic, though I myself see only very occasional driftings from the topic over the previous couple of pages of posts; and I would also agree that Robin should have brought his complaint here at the time instead of at this later point from a different thread, if only because it makes it hard to track the real issue, but since it was finally made here, it should be recognized that he is completely right, and his getting no response here has finally provoked me to give one.

His post to jar was right on topic and in fact it was the best answer I've seen, in fact perhaps The Definitive Answer to jar's ridiculous endlessly repeated claim that the fact that he and others believe both in God and evolution proves Robin's contention wrong that the two are incompatible.

NOTE JAR'S ARGUMENT CAREFULLY PLEASE: What he and others believe proves it's right to believe it, proves it true. You'd all be rolling on the floor gasping for breath with hilarity if a creationist had said something that stupid. I've been amazed over and over that other evos here haven't taken jar on about that absurd statement.

I may have answered it myself and some other creationists (jar loves to repeat it), and I know Robin has answered it before too, all to the point, and all ignored as usual, and now when Robin has answered it to perfection he gets an Admin warning and again no support from anybody {abe: except a few creationists, who don't count} for his definitive rebuttal, and jar actually goes on in Message 219 and beyond to repeat his ridiculous illogic, again without anybody's pointing out the absurdity of it. He lays it out in all its absurd perfection in #219 and NO EVO CALLS HIM ON IT? All jar does is assert it and claim it is correct, and accuse others of "babble" and "assertion" when he is the one who is making no sense, and NOBODY calls him on it but Robin and a few creationists WHO ARE IGNORED.

AGAIN HIS LOGIC: He believes in evolution and God; some others believe in evolution and God; therefore it is proved that evolution and God are compatible.

Is anybody yet willing to acknowledge the illogic of jar's excuse for an argument and his blatant display of it as if it were the reverse? And his bullying and his accusations of others of his own errors? Hey, evos, acquit yourselves with the reason and reasonableness you all think is so abundant on the evo side of this debate, prove your intelligence and acknowledge the sheer stupidity of jar's claim to have defeated the thread's premise with his logic, and the precision of Robin's exposure of his illogic.

Otherwise this one incident alone shows up the utter moral and intellectual bankruptcy of the evo side of the evc debate.

Oh, and let me predict that jar will answer with his usual bullying tactics (that's all he ever has for an argument), with an "LOL" or two, an accusation of "mere assertion" or "lack of support" {which has become typical evc bullying in general} or the like, and that no evo or evo admin will have the guts or the brains to call him on what he's doing.

This message has been edited by Faith, 03-30-2006 02:11 PM

This message has been edited by Faith, 03-30-2006 02:12 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by AdminAsgara, posted 03-26-2006 9:01 PM AdminAsgara has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Modulous, posted 03-30-2006 2:22 PM Faith has responded
 Message 35 by AdminNWR, posted 03-30-2006 2:45 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 38 by iano, posted 03-30-2006 4:26 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 215 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 32 of 302 (299601)
03-30-2006 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
03-30-2006 1:35 PM


Re: Time to call jar on his nonsense
To answer your questions re: why did no evos jump in?

I didn't answer any points raised by RR and jar because frankly I'm bored of it. RR bases his logic on his own conception of God. A version of God that jar doesn't believe in (Apparantly RR's conception of God can't do things for the greater good). Indeed, RR logic is that the existence of animals disproves God Message 49.

For the most part though, I am trying to figure out why you are posting this in here. Are you asking that jar is moderated because you don't think his belief is logical? That sets a dangerous precedent doesn't it? Your topic seems jarcentric (and like a bit of an excuse to take a quick pop at jar's beliefs...again), but the only part that discusses moderation is the concern about Asgara's topic reminder post.

What kind of moderation procedure are wanting to discuss?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 03-30-2006 1:35 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 03-30-2006 2:29 PM Modulous has not yet responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 30990
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 33 of 302 (299602)
03-30-2006 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Modulous
03-30-2006 2:22 PM


Re: Time to call jar on his nonsense
I suppose I'd have posted it on the original thread but it was closed, and the moderation issue is that asgara simply claimed to have mistakenly misaddressed her admin warning when the real issue was that in so doing she gave jar's illogic admin support and robin's beautiful exposure of his illogic got relegated to an off topic post.

Another admin complaint is that jar's illogic should many times in the past have been called by admins since no evos call him on it. All that ever happens is that creos point out his illogic and are bullied as usual as if they were wrong when they are right. Robin is no creo but in this case his argument was perfection itself. Admins are tacitly supporting the most flagrantly unfair and obtuse arguments by evos. And jar's being an admin himself does tend to make one wonder why he escapes admin rebukes on the many many occasions it seems to me he has deserved it.

I just got mad that there is such rampant unfairness here.

This message has been edited by Faith, 03-30-2006 02:33 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Modulous, posted 03-30-2006 2:22 PM Modulous has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Admin, posted 03-30-2006 2:43 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 36 by AdminModulous, posted 03-30-2006 3:02 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 37 by jar, posted 03-30-2006 3:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12590
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 34 of 302 (299605)
03-30-2006 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
03-30-2006 2:29 PM


Re: Time to call jar on his nonsense
Hi Faith,

If you feel open issues remain from that now-closed thread, my suggestion is to propose a new thread so that the discussion can continue.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 03-30-2006 2:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 302 (299606)
03-30-2006 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
03-30-2006 1:35 PM


Re: TIME TO CALL JAR ON HIS NONSENSE, EVC
NOTE JAR'S ARGUMENT CAREFULLY PLEASE: What he and others believe proves it's right to believe it, proves it true. You'd all be rolling on the floor gasping for breath with hilarity if a creationist had said something that stupid. I've been amazed over and over that other evos here haven't taken jar on about that absurd statement.

If I trace the arguments back, they seem to come from this statement (in Message 203): "True, but "Christian evolutionism" is an oxymoron." Producing an example of a Christian evolutionist should suffice to show that is not an oxymoron. And that appears to be what jar did.

Your general point is correct - belief that God exists is not evidence that God exists. But I don't see that your point is relevant to the particular messages you mentioned.


To comment on moderation procedures or respond to admin messages:
  • Discussion of moderation procedures
  • Comments on promotions of Proposed New Topics
  • Thread Reopen Requests
  • Great Debate proposals

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 31 by Faith, posted 03-30-2006 1:35 PM Faith has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 39 by iano, posted 03-30-2006 5:42 PM AdminNWR has not yet responded

    AdminModulous
    Administrator (Idle past 215 days)
    Posts: 897
    Joined: 03-02-2006


    Message 36 of 302 (299611)
    03-30-2006 3:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
    03-30-2006 2:29 PM


    moderating logic?
    *switching to Admin mode*

    You want us to moderate people who are not being logical? I'm not sure you fully appreciate how that would affect the nature of debate here. In the thread we are talking about, should an Admin have moderated RR on the lack of logic of equivocating a Creator with 'robinrohan's definition of the Christian God'? A conception of the Christian God that you yourself have had problems with in the past.

    You think RR's argument was perfection? If that is the case, then you are not a Christian - since believing God can do apparantly nasty things for the Greater Good is not logical according to rr's argument (see Message 16). Perhaps I should moderate you on your logic skills too? I should probably ban everybody on the entire forum and finally myself for that matter.

    Let me also remind you that we have two anti-evo Admins, and had you not turned it down, you could also have been one.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 33 by Faith, posted 03-30-2006 2:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30936
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 37 of 302 (299618)
    03-30-2006 3:29 PM
    Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
    03-30-2006 2:29 PM


    Re: Time to call jar on his nonsense
    Perhaps you would like to start a thread on my illogic?

    Others have tried, perhaps you might have more success.

    Pick a subject. Use Robin's if you like. I will be happy to discuss it with you.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 33 by Faith, posted 03-30-2006 2:29 PM Faith has not yet responded

    iano
    Member (Idle past 52 days)
    Posts: 6165
    From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
    Joined: 07-27-2005


    Message 38 of 302 (299625)
    03-30-2006 4:26 PM
    Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
    03-30-2006 1:35 PM


    Re: TIME TO CALL JAR ON HIS NONSENSE, EVC
    Oh, and let me predict that jar will answer with his usual bullying tactics (that's all he ever has for an argument), with an "LOL" or two, an accusation of "mere assertion" or "lack of support"

    How could you forgot Jars favorite biblical passage - you old goat you!

    Faith, whilst you know I agree with you and respect you without end I'm going to point out something to you from an angle which might make clearer to you why things might be the way they are.

    (and Jar, please don't take this a some kind of slight... yet - read on. You may disagree but this is the way I see it and don't see any reason why it shouldn't be so)

    Faith. Do some basic analysis of Jars posting pattern. Look up topics for Jar and follow his progress (especially through a couple of God threads). Its typically a couple of lines per post no matter how far into the thread you go. There is no long drawn out discussion and points gone into in depth. Surface skimming pot shots - not in-depth, long drawn out debate. I'll grant that quantity doesn't necessarily mean quality but if you look at the history of Potm's then you will see that the best points (as understood here) tend to involve medium to long posts. Not three liners.

    Thus it is unreasonable (on both yourself and Jar) to suppose that he will satisfy your requirement of him (explain himself and expose his viewpoint to critique - for there is insufficient material to work with) or that you will satisfy his requirement (you aren't content with short on detail attempts at conclusion)

    If I look at your posts I can trace my way through your argument - whatever it may be. Click on "Topics for Faith" and I can go back quite a ways or forward quite a ways (nigh on all the time). I am able to follow from whence the argument has come and to where it has gone. Not so Jar. Short answers that don't have root backwards from the point of entry or forward from the point of entry.

    Jar is (like Charles Knight before him) a sniper at work. There is a role for this input. It helps to know that you can be tackled on any word or idea that you post and it helps to keep your arguement tighter. Sniping is almost a pseudo-admin role in that respect. But don't take it as mainstream in depth, point on point debate. It cannot do what it is not designed to do.

    I think that it is here that the nub of the issue lies. You are both trying to accomplish different things and might do better to understand each others core aim in considering the others approach.

    Thats my view anyway


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 31 by Faith, posted 03-30-2006 1:35 PM Faith has not yet responded

    iano
    Member (Idle past 52 days)
    Posts: 6165
    From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
    Joined: 07-27-2005


    Message 39 of 302 (299643)
    03-30-2006 5:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 35 by AdminNWR
    03-30-2006 2:45 PM


    Re: TIME TO CALL JAR ON HIS NONSENSE, EVC

    Whilst your understanding of "what an evolutionist is" might be as plain as day to you and many (..for complex it is not), I would hazard a guess that "what is a Christian" is anything but. How come then your assurance about a Jar 2 liner post in deciding as you do?

    A Christian evolutionist. Elaborate... on the Christian bit

    This message has been edited by AdminJar, 03-30-2006 04:47 PM


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 35 by AdminNWR, posted 03-30-2006 2:45 PM AdminNWR has not yet responded

    AdminAsgara
    Administrator (Idle past 413 days)
    Posts: 2073
    From: The Universe
    Joined: 10-11-2003


    Message 40 of 302 (299644)
    03-30-2006 5:47 PM


    This is not a debate forum. If you all want to continue the original topic, open a new thread.
    Replies to this message:
     Message 41 by iano, posted 03-30-2006 5:53 PM AdminAsgara has responded

      
    iano
    Member (Idle past 52 days)
    Posts: 6165
    From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
    Joined: 07-27-2005


    Message 41 of 302 (299646)
    03-30-2006 5:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 40 by AdminAsgara
    03-30-2006 5:47 PM


    nwr writes:

    If I trace the arguments back, they seem to come from this statement (in Message 203): "True, but "Christian evolutionism" is an oxymoron." Producing an example of a Christian evolutionist should suffice to show that is not an oxymoron. And that appears to be what jar did.

    thou shalt not question an admin then.

    So be it

    LOL

    PS: having AdminJar do a "Cease and desist" on a post concerning plain old Jar is about as ropey a scenario as one can imagine.

    PS: Iano hears a knock on the door. Its late. He opens the door. Its 20 Orangutans...AAARGH

    This message has been edited by iano, 30-Mar-2006 10:58 PM

    This message has been edited by iano, 30-Mar-2006 11:00 PM

    This message has been edited by iano, 30-Mar-2006 11:07 PM


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 40 by AdminAsgara, posted 03-30-2006 5:47 PM AdminAsgara has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 42 by AdminAsgara, posted 03-30-2006 5:55 PM iano has responded

    AdminAsgara
    Administrator (Idle past 413 days)
    Posts: 2073
    From: The Universe
    Joined: 10-11-2003


    Message 42 of 302 (299648)
    03-30-2006 5:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 41 by iano
    03-30-2006 5:53 PM


    Please keep your attributions straight. I didn't not post what you say I did. That was nwr.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 41 by iano, posted 03-30-2006 5:53 PM iano has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 43 by iano, posted 03-30-2006 6:00 PM AdminAsgara has not yet responded

      
    iano
    Member (Idle past 52 days)
    Posts: 6165
    From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
    Joined: 07-27-2005


    Message 43 of 302 (299650)
    03-30-2006 6:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 42 by AdminAsgara
    03-30-2006 5:55 PM


    Oops ...too much coke. Sorry AA

    This message has been edited by iano, 30-Mar-2006 11:01 PM


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 42 by AdminAsgara, posted 03-30-2006 5:55 PM AdminAsgara has not yet responded

    kjsimons
    Member
    Posts: 665
    From: Orlando,FL
    Joined: 06-17-2003


    Message 44 of 302 (299874)
    03-31-2006 4:37 PM


    Randman rises again!
    I just saw that AdminChristian has decided that randman deserves to be reinstated and has done so. I would request that perhaps if some majority of the admins would like to see randman return that would be ok, but I don't think that the opinion of just one admin should be enough. Just my two cents worth.
    Replies to this message:
     Message 45 by Adminnemooseus, posted 03-31-2006 4:55 PM kjsimons has not yet responded
     Message 46 by Chiroptera, posted 03-31-2006 4:59 PM kjsimons has not yet responded
     Message 47 by Admin, posted 03-31-2006 5:25 PM kjsimons has responded

    Adminnemooseus
    Director
    Posts: 3879
    Joined: 09-26-2002


    Message 45 of 302 (299880)
    03-31-2006 4:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 44 by kjsimons
    03-31-2006 4:37 PM


    Re: Randman rises again!
    AdminChristian didn't mention such, but there was a fair amount of discussion on the matter, in the Private Administration Forum (PAF).

    Members of the creationism side can be under a lot of pressure here at . There are a lot more of the evolution side, and they do pile on. It's understandable, if not totally excusable, that the "piled on" might sometimes react badly to it all. Especially if one or more members of the evo side is contributing their own variety of abrasiveness.

    I would suggest to those of the creationist side, that they choose there battles carefully, and not try to respond to every evo challage in every topic.

    The Randman perspective is part of one side of the debate. It may or may not be a quality part, but it still is part.

    Moderation efforts can be tough and messy. My personal impression is that Randman deserved the suspension, but it is OK for him to come back. Probably there will be more suspensions and comeback in the future.

    By the way, even now the PAF discussion on the matter continues.

    Adminnemooseus


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 44 by kjsimons, posted 03-31-2006 4:37 PM kjsimons has not yet responded

      
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