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Author Topic:   God is cruel
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 301 (300372)
04-02-2006 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Protomenace
04-02-2006 7:15 PM


Hello, protomenace, and welcome to EvC.
When people discuss these types of questions, about the ethics of the deity, they seem to make three fundamental but unspoken assumptions. The contradictions arises because these assumptions contradictory.
(1) There is an absolute standard of morality. So far, I have seen no compelling argument for the existence of an absolute standard of morality. Morality, by its very nature, is (or seems to me to be) subjective. So God cannot be judged to be good or bad, just or unjust, cruel or nice; or, to be more precise, God can be both good and bad, just and unjust, cruel and nice. It depends on whose viewpoint that is under consideration. That God sees himself as just and that you see him as unjust is not surprising, and not a contradiction.
(2) Even if there is an absolute standard of morality, God does not necessarily exemplify it. Maybe God is cruel and mean and unjust. Or maybe he is more or less good, but not perfectly good according to this standard. In that case, you might be correct, but you'll just have to deal with it.
(3) Finally, God might exemplify some absolute standard of good and bad; however, the problem is that your own sense of ethics and morality, based as they are on the norms of one particular culture in history (North America in the early 21st century) may not reflect this standard. In other words, God is perfectly good and just in sending you to hell despite that he has not given you the ability to discern his existence (I believe this is close to the Calvinist approach). Your going to hell is good; that you don't recognize it is your own problem.
What is amusing, of course, is that religious fundamentalist make these same three errors. While the first two might be expected, it is funny how they assume that what is good and bad must be reflected in their own cultural biases. This is why they often get tied up when they try to rationlize the killing of the first born during the first Passover, for example, or the confusing threads ongoing about evolution disproving God because God is good and evolution is bad, or something like that.
Edited to add the last clause of the last sentence.
This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 02-Apr-2006 11:43 PM

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Protomenace, posted 04-02-2006 7:15 PM Protomenace has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 301 (300592)
04-03-2006 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by New Cat's Eye
04-03-2006 11:43 AM


quote:
I would have to say that even though you were made the way you are, you are still responsible for your actions because the are not predetermined and you choose to do the things you do.
protomenace isn't talking about actions; he is talking about belief. And people are not in control of their beliefs. They may exert some influence on their beliefs, for example, they might choose to ignore contrary evidence or refuse to think deeply about a certain matter. But once inconvenient facts enter into one's awareness, it is not so easy to control where one's thoughts and beliefs are going to go.

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2006 11:43 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2006 12:59 PM Chiroptera has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 301 (300599)
04-03-2006 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by New Cat's Eye
04-03-2006 12:59 PM


quote:
I know, I addressed that part.
Sorry. I thought I had read your post, but clearly not carefully enough.

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2006 12:59 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 301 (300626)
04-03-2006 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Heathen
04-03-2006 2:07 PM


quote:
So if God is so merciful why doesn't he simply put us back to the pre-fall position?
Yeah! Why don't we each get a chance to eat or not eat the apple?

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Heathen, posted 04-03-2006 2:07 PM Heathen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 04-03-2006 2:39 PM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2006 2:43 PM Chiroptera has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 301 (300666)
04-03-2006 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by New Cat's Eye
04-03-2006 2:43 PM


Heh. Well, I can dig that. Unfortunately, it then seems to make the Genesis story more of a metaphor than an actual historical event that had consequences, and I think our evangelical cousins may have objections to that.

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2006 2:43 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-03-2006 4:34 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 301 (300685)
04-03-2006 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by robinrohan
04-03-2006 3:13 PM


quote:
So, I have to assume that A. God is cruel. or B. God isn't real.
What he's really saying is that if God existed he would be cruel (so He doesn't exist). But if our morality is subjective, then we can't make objective moral judgments.
That's what I tried to point out in the third post in this thread. There are several hidden premises in protomenace's argument.

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by robinrohan, posted 04-03-2006 3:13 PM robinrohan has not replied

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