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Author
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Topic: God is cruel
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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On your assumptions.
If for the sake of this discussion we accept your assumptions:
Let's assume that god is real, god created me, and atheists go to hell. then yes, there is no other possible logical conclusion that that god is cruel. So the question, at least for me, would be, "If GOD is not simply cruel, can those assumptions be true?" Let's look through them individually and see if one or more might be wrong. Your first assumption is that GOD is real. That's one that can never be proven and is not even dependant on evidence, but rather something someone must take on faith. If GOD exists, then She exists even if all the available evidence says She does not exist. If GOD dooes not exist, then It does not exist even if all the evidence says It does exist. So your first assumption is simply a matter of faith at this point and for the sake of the argument we will say "Yes, GOD exists." The next one is simple. If GOD exists then by definition, GOD is the creator and so GOD created you as you are. He gave you the power and capability of critical thinking and as Creator, also created all of the evidence that you are using to make your judgements. The final assumption is "... that all Atheists go to hell." If that is true, then based on the analysis of the first two assumptions, GOD is cruel. If folk, such as myself, believe that GOD is not cruel, then the only possible explanation is that the third assumption is false, all Atheists do not go to hell. The question then becomes, "Is it possible within the Christian framework, to believe that all Atheists do not go to hell?" IMHO that is not only supportable within the Christian framework, based either on the Creeds or on the Bible, but is the whole message of Christ. The Creeds say that Jesus came down to earth for all mankind; they don't say that GOD forgave only a select few. In addition, the Bible supports the position that whether you go to hell or not will be based on what you as an individual do, not what you profess or believe. This is particularly evident in John 3 and in Matthew 25.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Protomenace, posted 04-02-2006 7:15 PM | | Protomenace has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 13 of 301 (300568)
04-03-2006 11:15 AM
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Reply to: Message 12 by Brian
04-03-2006 11:02 AM
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About the Decalogue.
But, atheism is a very big sin. It doesn't even sit well with the decalogue. I don't understand how you arrive at that conclusion?
Wouldn't you say that to deny that Jesus triumphed over death was a sin? No, not really. This message has been edited by jar, 04-03-2006 10:22 AM
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by Brian, posted 04-03-2006 11:02 AM | | Brian has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 14 by Brian, posted 04-03-2006 11:30 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 18 of 301 (300576)
04-03-2006 11:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 14 by Brian
04-03-2006 11:30 AM
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re: the Decalogue
We regularly have other 'gods', such as money that we worship. Regularly take God's name in vain. Never keep the sabbath. Regularly covet goods and wives. How are any of those unique to Atheists?
To deny Christ's victory over death rules out salvation according to Paul. Not exactly. What Paul said is what I have always said. If there was not a resurrection, then the message of an afterlife, of heaven, is moot. It simply doesn't matter. There is nothing in your quote from Paul:
If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. has anything to do with belief. What he says is that if there is not a resurrection of the dead, the regardless of wht you believe, there is no resurrection of the dead.
I've said a million times, if it isn't necessary to believe in the resurrection then Jesus' execution was a circus act. Yes, you have said that though I have not been counting.
According to Christianity, salvation comes through Jesus Christ. Yes, you have asserted that. But that has nothing to do with the issue of whether or not an Atheist would be saved. According to the Bible and the Creeds, God, for us and our salvation, came down from heaven and became man. There are no restrictions on who the "us" refers to. Neither source (although as is so often the case with the Bible you can find contradictory passages) says that you must be a believer to gain that forgiveness.
I think Jesus was either a con man, a self deluded nut, some sort of social reformer, or a phantom. I can't see me checkin in at the pearly gates. Okay. Frankly, neither of us will really know the answer to that until we die.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 14 by Brian, posted 04-03-2006 11:30 AM | | Brian has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 20 by Brian, posted 04-03-2006 11:55 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 21 of 301 (300582)
04-03-2006 12:09 PM
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Reply to: Message 20 by Brian
04-03-2006 11:55 AM
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re: the Decalogue
They aren't. But an athiest is more likely to say "f*ckin Jesus H Christ" when they hit their thumb with a hammer than a Christian is. You have never been around me while I worked on a car. LOL
Yes, but he still maintains that you should take the resurrection as a real event. Yes, that is the Christian belief. But if the resurrection never happened then it's moot.
Which particular creeds? Apostle's creed, Nicene Creed,Athanasian creed? Ain't it grand having so many to choose from? Certainly the Nicene and Apostles Creeds. Honestly I'd have to review the Athanasian Creed before answering on that one.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by Brian, posted 04-03-2006 11:55 AM | | Brian has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 22 by Brian, posted 04-03-2006 12:25 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 23 of 301 (300589)
04-03-2006 12:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 22 by Brian
04-03-2006 12:25 PM
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re: the Decalogue
But they are simply statements that define what a Christian believes, they do not preclude an Atheist from being saved.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by Brian, posted 04-03-2006 12:25 PM | | Brian has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 111 by Brian, posted 04-04-2006 2:21 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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John 3.
Yes, the part you quote is what most of the Fundamentalists quotemine, but they don't go one to read the rest of John 3. If you read the rest of John 3, what you find is that the condemnation is related to what folk do, to acts, to actions. What John 3 is saying is that those who actually do recieve the Gospel, that Love GOD and love others as they love themselves, will be saved. And how does someone Love GOD? It's not by believing in GOD, or professing, it's through actions. That's where Matthew 25 comes in.
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 112 of 301 (300892)
04-04-2006 2:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 111 by Brian
04-04-2006 2:21 PM
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Re: Nicene Creed
According to your reading. However, I read it as unbounded. Just as man implies more than the subset "male of the species", it implies more than just the subset "Those who profess to believe in the Christian GOD". The Creeds are a form of Club Membership statement. They are the things that define whether one is a member of the club, Christians, or not. They are not the Gospel, or the message, that IMHO Jesus brought. Before going much further, I need to once again say that we are talking here of personal beliefs, and in the context of trying to establish whether or not GOD is cruel. As I outlined in Message 6, if the three assumptions in the OP are true, then the answer is, "Yes, God is cruel." I do not read the Creeds as excluding Atheists from salvation any more than it excludes women, however it does exclude them from membership in the club, "Christian." In addition, I believe that the Bible clearly states that salvation will be a function of ones actions, how one behaves as opposed to what one believes or professes to believe.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 111 by Brian, posted 04-04-2006 2:21 PM | | Brian has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 201 of 301 (302329)
04-08-2006 10:18 AM
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Reply to: Message 200 by Legend
04-08-2006 8:25 AM
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Re: the Rule-maker is responsible for the outcome of the Rules
DorfMan writes: Then we should probably not have children. To do so may be unjust and cruel.
to which Legend replies quote:
are WE doing a cruel thing when we have children, or is the RULE-MAKER doing a cruel thing by setting it all up so that the children suffer through no fault of their own ?
at which point jar asked "didn't someone command man to be fruitful and multiply?"
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 200 by Legend, posted 04-08-2006 8:25 AM | | Legend has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 205 by DorfMan, posted 04-08-2006 11:04 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 206 of 301 (302359)
04-08-2006 11:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 205 by DorfMan
04-08-2006 11:04 AM
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Re: the Rule-maker is responsible for the outcome of the Rules
That same someone also asked his first two creatures to be obedient. In case you can't make the association........don't eat of the fruit of this tree, is a request for obedience. And that, in addition to being totally unrelated to what you quoted, is yet another example. Are you saying that it was wrong for them to eat the fruit, to disobey GOD?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 205 by DorfMan, posted 04-08-2006 11:04 AM | | DorfMan has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 207 by DorfMan, posted 04-08-2006 11:18 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 208 of 301 (302368)
04-08-2006 11:27 AM
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Reply to: Message 207 by DorfMan
04-08-2006 11:18 AM
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Re: the Rule-maker is responsible for the outcome of the Rules
The same way disobedience is wrong in any setting. It's the snowflake that starts the avalanche. Fine. So he tells these poor suckers before he lets them eat from the fruit that will give them the ability to tell right from wrong. Sorry, but that really is just silly.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 207 by DorfMan, posted 04-08-2006 11:18 AM | | DorfMan has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 218 of 301 (303659)
04-12-2006 7:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 217 by Heathen
04-12-2006 7:19 PM
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If you want to discuss Christianity with someone who doesn't believe in the Fall
I'll be happy to discuss it with you.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 217 by Heathen, posted 04-12-2006 7:19 PM | | Heathen has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 221 by Heathen, posted 04-13-2006 10:56 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 222 of 301 (303882)
04-13-2006 11:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 221 by Heathen
04-13-2006 10:56 AM
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Re: If you want to discuss Christianity with someone who doesn't believe in the Fall
Was there a Fall? I can find no indication in the Bible that there was ever a Fall or that there is anything like Original Sin. As I said in Message 6, if the assumptions outlined in the OP were true, then God would indeed be true. Fortunately, there is no support for the positions outlined.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 221 by Heathen, posted 04-13-2006 10:56 AM | | Heathen has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: If you want to discuss Christianity with someone who doesn't believe in the Fall
I don't understand this statement jar. Are you saying nothing at all went wrong? Yeah, pretty much.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Is that wrong?
Let me go over your stuff.
They start off naked and unashamed. They finish clothed and ashamed. Nothing much wrong I can see there.
They start in God's deep presence. They finish in God's distant presense. I see no indication of that.
They start with potential for the tree of life-- and are told not to eat from the other tree.
They finish by eating from the other tree-- and are cut off from the tree of life. Yup, that's about the way the story goes. But did anything go wrong? To say that something went wrong, you have to say that GOD screwed up. And look what we gained. We gained the Knowledge of Good and Evil, the big thing that makes us Humans. Without that we would be no different than the sheep or cattle.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Q: Is that wrong? A: Yes. It is wrong.
But, just to clarify, are you saying that the Genesis account portrays Adam and Eve as doing a good thing when partaking in the tree they apparently weren't supposed to partake in? Complicated question. First, the only way they could ever know to obey GOD was to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. So yes, if you think being able to obey GOD is good, then it was a good thing. Second, knowing good from evil is what makes us different than animals. So overall, I'd say it was a good thing.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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