God is cruel

I'd have to agree with jar on this one. Assuming these premises are true, I could conclude that god is cruel.But, I do not think that god is cruel, so I would have to say that the premise that is incorrect is that all atheists go to hell. Just wanted to point our that you could assume the third one, the title of the thread, that god does exist and is cruel.The discussion doesn't have to end at that though. One way to move forward would be to discuss this part: and that if your actions are predetermined, and you are not responsible for them, then how can you be justly punished for something that you were made to do.I would have to say that even though you were made the way you are, you are still responsible for your actions because the are not predetermined and you choose to do the things you do.Do you choose to be atheist even though it is a result of the way you were created to deny things that lack evidence? and if you do not choose to be atheist, should you be punished for something you didn't choose to do?I would say that god does not punish you for something that you didn't choose to do, and that being an atheist, because of the way you were created, does not warrant punishment. Punishment is deserved for the choices that you do make, the way you behave and treat other people. Simply being atheist is not enough to be punished, but being bad is; and if being bad is a result of your athiesm, then the atheism could indirectly warrant punishment, although atheism is not usually a cause for being bad.

This is kinda an off-tpoic question, but maybe you can quickly answer it and we don't have to derail the thread and everything will be fine. I was just wondering why you left out the possibility that Jesus was the son of god and the things he claimed were true.

Oh, ok, that makes sense, duh.

I know, I addressed that part.I don't think belief alone will get you into hell, it takes actions too.I could have left it at that but I saw no reason to just answer the question and stop the discussion. I'm saying that if the discussion is to move on we'd have to talk about actions and not just belief.

Evertime you make a decision between right and wrong you get that chance; when you choose wrong, you are 'eating the apple'.

I don't think the choices you're going to make are outlined in your creation. I think we have free will so I can't pick between either of these.

Well, it depends on what you mean by indirectly responsible. Like I said, I think you make the decisions, not that they are made for you beforehand.Is god indirectly responsible, I'd say yes, but indirectly more than responsible. He doesn't make you do bad things, he isn't responsible for the bad things you do, but he did make you so he could be considered indirectly responsible for those bad things. This doesn't really affect the argument in my opinion.

I don't really know, I guess my feelings and desires. Defined by? More like governed by, yeah. I don't really know but I don't think that he does. From genetics and upbringing, the way you were born and the way you were raised.

Hello, What do you mean 'is the divine plan relative?'?

me too Well, its not really that unfortunate. I think the metaphor tries to explain some of the consequences. But I also have various interpretations of the story. The one is that the 'apple' is involved in all our moral decisions, like I already said. Another one I like is that taking the apple was when humans became modern in our intellect or when we became cognitive. Like, living in the garden was like being one of all the other animals in that seem mindless in nature and just be instinctual and live in harmony with nature yada yada yada. Then, for some reason, modern humans took a leap in intellegence and start taking matters into their own hands and found morals and conscience and all that. This is the taking of the apple, and being expelled from the garden is how we are no longer in harmony with nature, so to speak.I don't know why I just typed all that, I hope it made sense, I'm not even gonna proof read it. I just felt like letting you know. Fuck 'em.LOL, just kidding, but yeah, I don't care what they object too.

I think the divine plan can somehow coexist with free will (in some way that I am unable to explain, or perhaps understand even). But, if the divine plan and free will are mutually exclusive, I'll take the free will. Well, some of the assumtions you make about me because of my name will be correct and some won't, but don't assume that because 'Catholics', in general, believe something that all Catholics, individually, believe it too.

God can do whatever he wants and he can not-do what he doesn't want, IMO. I don't really know, I'd guess not. God can do whatever he wants and he can not-do what he doesn't want, IMO. I don't really know, I'd guess not.Its not like god is up there deciding where each individual air molecule in the environment is going in his great plan for the wind currents of that day. I think he is capable of doing that I just don't think that he actually is doing it. why bother?In the same sense, I don't think he is controlling all of the dicisions of all the people running around down here, he lets them do whatever they want. I think he could know all of the interactions that will take place but I don't know if he exercises that ability or not.

well I don't read genesis literally. I don't think Adam and Eve actually existed. Why does it seem that? I have no idea. indeed.

Oh, that’s what you meant, yeah, I mean, with the things we have laid out as ”sin’, I’d say we are inclined to do them. The whole ”Fall’ thing, to me, means that we want to sin and from what I see, people (including myself) do a lot of sinning. But its no big deal because god forgives us, he isn’t all that cruel. I read Genesis metaphorically, that’s just one of the interpretations I get. I wrote another one some posts up. But it makes sense to me, when you sin, you choose to sin just like A&E chose to eat the apple, the effect is a separation from god, a spiritual ”death’ so to speak, but its not totally unforgivable or irreversible, God ain’t THAT cruel. Sure we can't get back 'into the garden' (which in my interpretation is the state that all the non-human animals are living in) but we aren't doomed either.

Well, you gotta play with the hand thats dealt to ya. But the things(genes and environment) don't make the decision for the person, the person makes it so it is the person's fault. I don't suscribe to determinism, I think we have free will, I don't think that the decisions I'm going to make have already been made for me. I don't presume to know what god would know and I'd rather not argue about the limitations, or lack there-of, of omniscience. Nope, you still choose to sin. If, for some reason, you do something bad that was not a result of you choosing to do it, then that is not considered sinning, but there are bad things that you do that you choose to do, and those are sins.So, if you do agree with your quote, why do you think that people who believe in god also hold people responsible for their actions?