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Author | Topic: God is cruel | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Chiroptera Inactive Member |
quote: That's what I tried to point out in the third post in this thread. There are several hidden premises in protomenace's argument. "Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure." -- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Seems there's a lot more chances for us to screw up than there was in Adam and Eve's years. they were forbiddden from eating an from a tree. well I don't read genesis literally. I don't think Adam and Eve actually existed.
Seems nowadays we're all doomed from the word go... Why does it seem that?
even if I do make the right choice.. will I revert to a pre fall scenario? will I get to walk around naked? will I no longer have to toil? I have no idea.
justice indeed indeed.
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1313 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes: Why does it seem that? Original sin. (if you subscribe to that notion)
creavolution writes: even if I do make the right choice.. will I revert to a pre fall scenario? will I get to walk around naked? will I no longer have to toil? catholic scientist writes:
So why then do you believe
I have no idea.catholic scientist writes: Evertime you make a decision between right and wrong you get that chance; when you choose wrong, you are 'eating the apple' This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-03-2006 05:36 PM
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Protomenace Junior Member (Idle past 6598 days) Posts: 15 Joined: |
So by your argument, these things(genes and environment) are totally random, and in that case not controlled by the person who finally ends up with the genes and such. It's still not that person's fault, and in any case, even if god made such things randomly, he would still know what the outcome would be. And even if he doesn't excercise this ability, it's still not the person's fault. They just got unlucky with their genes and upbringing.
This message has been edited by protomenace, 04-03-2006 06:45 PM This message has been edited by protomenace, 04-03-2006 07:00 PM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Even if it is merely as a construct to attribute morality to? Didn't sound like he was talking about a "construct," whatever that might look like. It sounded something like C.S. Lewis' idea that the fact that we are all moral creatures with strong moral opinions (whether we agree or not) is evidence for the existence of God. I never found his argument convincing, or maybe I didn't even understand it. But this reminded me of it, as if to say that all the human complaining about God's not suiting our own moral standards could only come from our being made in the image of God Himself even if we twist it around against Him. This message has been edited by Faith, 04-03-2006 07:09 PM
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: |
How does one choose to believe in something? Or to not believe in it? Easy to answer for me because I got depressed a year or so ago and didn't even pray to God for about two months. Then after refuting him in my own mind, I CHOSE to believe again even though I had no reason to. The O.P. is just a false dilemma. If God isn't a bad ass who I have good reason to disbelieve then he doesn't exist. In other words; " I as an atheist don't want to believe in God therefore he's a meany if he exists and that's that ". ..Dan, just admitt that you think you knows it all. It's just arrogant personality when we think that, but if you're conscious of it then guess what bud? You're responsible for it. Just like I was. It's like saying; " God, I shot that guy but it was you who pulled the trigger because you made a few galaxies a couple of billion years back, do you remember ? " " Objection. " " Sustained ". This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-03-2006 07:10 PM
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
Easy to answer for me because I got depressed a year or so ago and didn't even pray to God for about two months. Then after refuting him in my own mind, I CHOSE to believe again even though I had no reason to. Cool. Now choose to believe in magic rectum monkeys. They live in your bum, and grant wishes. Seriously. Without any reason to do so, choose to believe, honestly and with all your heart, that they are real. If you say you can, I call total freakin' shenanigans.
In other words Dan, just admitt that you think It's like saying I also think you're really saying, "Dan is cool!" And I thank you.
" God, I shot that guy but it was you who pulled the trigger because you made a few galaxies a couple of billion years back, do you remember ? " Not believing in God is the same as shooting a guy? Interesting. "We had survived to turn on the History Channel And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied: You're what happens when two substances collide And by all accounts you really should have died." -Andrew Bird
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DorfMan Member (Idle past 6111 days) Posts: 282 From: New York Joined: |
quote: They were told not to touch something and why. They did it anyways.The child is told not to touch the hot pot. It doesn't really know that it is hot until it touches it. It can either believe what it is told, or it can live with the consequences. They lived with the consequences of not believing what they were told.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Well said.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 764 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
They were told not to touch something and why. They did it anyways. In a world where death supposedly did not exist, Adam was told not to eat that fruit or he would die that same day. Yeah. Let's tell that two-year-old toddler "refrain from touching the cooking vessel, as it might cause thermal damage to your epidermis and perhaps dermis." It's a silly-assed story any way you slice it. Coyote had much better stories about him.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Why does everybody assume that what the Bible says about something is ALL that happened? I would assume that to describe in some detail if far from exhaustively the creation and early days of planet earth and our first parents, just the first few chapters of Genesis, would take at least a few volumes the size of the Bible. In other words, it seems reasonable to expect that there was plenty of communication between God and his first couple, and no reason to doubt that they understood enough about the implications of the threat of death to have been appropriately warned. That is after all implied by the few words we are given. They were warned, they understood, they disobeyed. It's a common human story. What's the problem?
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes: Why does everybody assume that what the Bible says about something is ALL that happened? We don't assume that everything that happened was written down. We also don't fill in the blanks with whatever strikes our fancy. If it ain't there, don't make it up. This message has been edited by Ringo, 2006-04-03 08:24 PM Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation. Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
If it ain't there, don't make it up. You bet. And it isn't making anything up to assume that what happened supported and didn't contradict what is actually written, but you guys love to dream up contradictory scenarios. If it says they were told they would die, then the logical thing to assume, the fair thing to assume, is that they understood it, instead of imposing your own crazy ideas about what they could have understood for which there is no written support. Sheesh.
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anglagard Member (Idle past 866 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
Apparently the topic "is God cruel" is solely dependent upon a Christian fundamentalist or para-fundamentalist god. If the Bible is seen as parable instead of textbook, as strongly implied by the New Testament, then the defense of the critically-unexamined god loses necessity. The Bible itself may be a way in which God seperates the dogmatic, self-righteous, false-prophet, serving fundamentalist from the truly righteous, be they Christian, Bhuddist, Taoist, or Athiest, etc. based upon deeds instead of lies (knowing or otherwise).
There are many reasons to believe in God, none of which are within the perview of science. It is doing evil in this world which makes one deserving of hell, the existence of which, in the traditional sense, is as doubtful as the Santa Claus-like male false god of over-simplified fundamentalism. No one who would presume salvation could within any moral framework criticize the work of a scientist such as Norman Blaloc in using the principles of heredity and evolution to create agricultural useful plants that have saved 2 billion lives in the last 40 years. If your god is against saving the lives of billions of people it is time to find a new God. To me the cruelist thing a god could do is to give people a curious mind (which inherently leads to science) and then punish them for using it to help humanity. This message has been edited by anglagard, 04-04-2006 02:23 AM
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5938 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Faith
You state here that
If it says they were told they would die, then the logical thing to assume, the fair thing to assume, is that they understood it And in a previous post you atate
, just the first few chapters of Genesis, would take at l east a few volumes the size of the Bible. In other words, it seems reasonable to expect that there was plenty of communication between God and his first couple, and no reason to doubt that they understood enough about the implications of the threat of death to have been appropriately warned. Now at the beginning of this post you also state this
And it isn't making anything up to assume that what happened supported and didn't contradict what is actually written Now what is actually written?
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. In the DAY thou eatest thou shall surely die. This is contradicted by the fact that banishment from the garden required that they did not die. But the word of God was that they would die and IN the day that they eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. So tell me what crazy idea are you NOT going to present "instead of imposing your own crazy ideas about what they could have understood for which there is no written support" that allows for death to be guaranteed on the same day when the rest of the story contradicts that position.
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