Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Case Against the Existence of God
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 106 of 301 (301890)
04-07-2006 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 8:24 AM


Re: What is pretend about living?
Your personal purposes, being personal, are subjective, and so there's no reason for preferring one purpose over another. They are all on the same level of arbitrariness. I might say my purpose in life is to get rid of all acorns. I don't like the way they look and I don't like the way they clutter up yards and crunch under my feet. So I work at that my whole life, and when my life is near its close, I will not have succeeded, perhaps, in eliminating all acorns, but I will have made a good start, and I can die knowing that I have done my duty. I leave this heroic endeavor to the generations to come.
That "personal purpose" is as valid as any other one might come up with.
So what's your point? What you do with your life is up to you. Nobody's going to say 'Hey, stop picking up those acorns. What you should be doing is...'. (Unless you're married, of course!).
Perhaps I don't care about the proper functioning of society. I prefer a dysfunctional society. I find it more interesting, even romantic. My view is as valid as yours, given the subjectivity of it all.
I didn't express a view about how society should work. Whether it's functional or dysfunctional, morality is the mechanism that regulates the behaviour of individuals towards each other.
example of objective thinking: mathematics
example of subjective thinking: "I prefer blondes to brunettes."
As regards describing God as "thinking"--that might be a metaphor. Not sure how else to express it.
All my thinking is subjective whether it's about mathematics, blondes or brunettes.

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 8:24 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 12:18 PM JavaMan has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 107 of 301 (301898)
04-07-2006 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Larni
04-07-2006 5:52 AM


I thought you went to hell if you did things like masturbation and murder?
Its more like you born on your way to hell. You could live as 'good' a life as Mother Theresa and such living wouldn't affect the destination stamped on your ticket. Murder/don't murder doesn't affect things in the least. People are deliverered at birth over a sheer drop into the Abyss. Thats the default. Whether they are nice to each other on the way down or not is not all that relevant. God offers to arrest the fall and pull you to safety. As a gift.
One can argue about the justness (according to our definition of it) of that. Or ask questions as to why. None of it arrests the speed of descent nor the destination being headed towards one jot. Patently the inability to be able to find intellectual coherence in denying God will not a point of defence. "If it were then only the intellectually able would have been able to get to heaven" might be his response on the day of Judgement.
That is one of the issues that I have. You tell me god wants this and someone else would say god wants that. Talking to any one who beleives in xian god conjours up very different gods.
quote:
We have no record of his date of birth, yet all the worlds chronology is linked to it
Hw never wrote a book, yet more books have been written about him than about anyone else in history and the output is still accelerating. The nearest thing we have to his biography has now been translated into over more than 2,000 languages
He never painted a picture, or composed any poetry or music, yet nobodies life and teaching have inspired a greater output of songs, plays, poetry, films, videos and other art forms. One film based on his recorded words, has been produced in over 900 languages and has believed to have been seen by more than any other film in history
He never raised an army, yet millons of people have laid down their lives in his cause and every year, thousands more do so.
Except for one brief period in his childhood, his travels were limited to an area the size of Wales, but his influence today is worldwide and his followers constitute the largest religious grouping the world has ever known
He had no formal education, but thousands of universities, seminaries colleges and schools have been founded in his name
His public teaching lasted three just years and was restricted to one small country, yet purpose built satellites and some of the worlds largest radio and television networks now beam his message around the globe
He set foot in just two countries, yet an organization committed to his cause claims to make regular flights to more countries than any commercial airline
He was virtually unknown outside his native country yet the current edition of Encylopedia Britannica, the entry under his name runs to 30,000 words
He is by far the most controversial person in history. Nobody has attracted most adoration or opposition, devotion or criticism and nobody elses teachings has ever been more ferverently receieved or fiercely rejected. For centuries, every recorded word he spoke has been relentlessly analysed by theologians, philosophers and others. On the day this sentence is being written (and read) millions of people are studying waht he said and did and trying to apply the significance of his words to their lives.
Even the most dyed in the wool sceptics must acknowledge that this man was something special and any open minded student of human history should agree that he deserves meticulous attention
From John Blanchards book "Does God believe in Atheists. p.556-7
The population of the world in increasing by about 70,000 people every day and the current total of all the people who have ever lived is put at something like 60 billion. Google the person Jesus and note the number of pages available. Google anyone else: Buddha, Mohammed, Confusious , Zarasthrusa, Thor... or any other god on the illusionary menu for that matter.
Jesus. The most notable person in 60,000,000,000 persons.
I understand the search for God might seem daunting at the start. But there are ways to whittle things down and provide some common sense leads as to which way to look.
Or you can be deflected by the comparatively infantile "Do you believe in the Invisable Pink Unicorn" 'intellectual' arguments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 5:52 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 9:35 AM iano has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 108 of 301 (301904)
04-07-2006 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by iano
04-07-2006 9:14 AM


iano writes:
Its more like you born on your way to hell. You could live as 'good' a life as Mother Theresa and such living wouldn't affect the destination stamped on your ticket. Murder/don't murder doesn't affect things in the least. People are deliverered at birth over a sheer drop into the Abyss. Thats the default. Whether they are nice to each other on the way down or not is not all that relevant. God offers to arrest the fall and pull you to safety. As a gift.
So....I can do whatever I like and it will make no difference at all?
As long as I believe in god.
I could shoot someone and believing in god would make that cool?
That can't be what your saying, is it?
iano writes:
Jesus. The most notable person in 60,000,000,000 persons.
Lara Croft has a big fan club and loads of media attention. Does this make her real?
Your arguement holds no water.
Belief will indeed cause people to lay down their lives for a cause. This does not make what the believe automatically true.
I stand by my assertation that there is not or has ever been evidence for a god's existance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by iano, posted 04-07-2006 9:14 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by iano, posted 04-07-2006 10:37 AM Larni has replied
 Message 115 by jar, posted 04-07-2006 11:12 AM Larni has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 301 (301906)
04-07-2006 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by riVeRraT
04-07-2006 8:36 AM


is the author of the green lantern claiming that his comics are the word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit?
He doesn't say, one way or the other. So they definitely could be!
What do the claims matter, though? I have a text, which shows us a neat character. Show me the case against his existence.
Maybe if you compared Zues to the God of the bible, your arguement would hold more validity.
Yeah, show me the case against Zeus' existence, too.

"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by riVeRraT, posted 04-07-2006 8:36 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by riVeRraT, posted 04-07-2006 5:57 PM Dan Carroll has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 110 of 301 (301915)
04-07-2006 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 4:37 AM


Re: Not sure I understand that reasoning
It is related to the two following statements. What it means is that beliefs will always be individual and personal. When combined with the statements that followed, it means that eforts such as this thread, while they may be fun, are necessarily pointless and futile.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 4:37 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 11:17 AM jar has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 111 of 301 (301923)
04-07-2006 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Larni
04-07-2006 9:35 AM


So....I can do whatever I like and it will make no difference at all? As long as I believe in god. I could shoot someone and believing in god would make that cool? That can't be what your saying, is it?
It would make a difference and no it wouldn't be cool (whatever that means). But it would have no bearing on your receipt of the gift of eternal life nor on that being outstandingly blissful.
Whilst a person profferred a gift can only either accept or reject it (you don't earn true gifts), the person offering it can only give it or not. A gift isn't a gift if it is conditional on your behaviour prior to or subsequent to you being given it. That would be something else. A wage or reward perhaps -but not a gift
Anyway, the word belief has enough difficulty as to its definition to suppose that there may be a little more to it than is meeting your eyes. One of the consequences of belief is that God takes up residence within you. Now that won't necessarily guarentee that you won't commit murder (nor even masturbation). Suffice to say than things...er..change on his arrival.
Lara Croft has a big fan club and loads of media attention. Does this make her real? Your arguement holds no water.
It wasn't an attempt at proof. It was an attempt at indicating that in deciding to look (which I take you haven't at this point) there are ways in which one might whittle down the seemingly bewildering amount of options out there.
A person who was honestly searching as to God or no, might not think it strange to check out what the most significant person in the history of mankind has said on the matter.
I stand by my assertation that there is not or has ever been evidence for a god's existance.
When standing thus one might do well to look upon that on which one is standing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 9:35 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 11:06 AM iano has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 112 of 301 (301936)
04-07-2006 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by iano
04-07-2006 10:37 AM


iano writes:
It would make a difference and no it wouldn't be cool (whatever that means). But it would have no bearing on your receipt of the gift of eternal life nor on that being outstandingly blissful.
This means that all the murderers in the world who believe in your god rub shoulders with with all the virtuous (who believe in your god) in heaven, where as the fellow who spends his whole life working for charirty in India (being Hindu) would not get into heaven and would at best go to purgatory.
iano writes:
A person who was honestly searching as to God or no, might not think it strange to check out what the most significant person in the history of mankind has said on the matter.
This is an arguement from authority.
iano writes:
When standing thus one might do well to look upon that on which one is standing
I do not understand what this statement means.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by iano, posted 04-07-2006 10:37 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by iano, posted 04-07-2006 11:48 AM Larni has replied
 Message 146 by iano, posted 04-07-2006 12:54 PM Larni has not replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 113 of 301 (301937)
04-07-2006 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 8:04 AM


Robin writes:
If there is no evidence against God, atheism would be untenable.
Please show how this is true.
If however there is no evidence for god I contend the is ABOLUTLY NO REASON to conclude one exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 8:04 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 11:25 AM Larni has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 301 (301938)
04-07-2006 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
04-05-2006 8:19 AM


Satheism, Watheism
They've divided atheism into Strong and Weak atheism, which I will call Satheism and Watheism, respectivey.
Satheism is the belief that god does not exist.
Watheism is the lack of a belief that god does exist.
You are calling for a evidence against the existance of god to support Satheism.
There is no evidence against the existance of god
For this reason, Satheism is as logically ridiculous as theism.
Watheism, on the other hand, is making no positive assertion, so it requires no evidence to back it up.
You have Watheists on this thread arguing against your position against Satheism, you guys aren't talking typing about the same thing.
Side note: The Watheists claim that theirs is the default position, that you are born lacking belief until someone feeds it to you. It would be interesting to see the result of a Forbidden Experiment for this, whether or not an isolated individual would come up with a god or not. If they did, would the Watheists still consider their position to be the defult? How would they react to the result?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 04-05-2006 8:19 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 11:21 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 165 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 3:27 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 115 of 301 (301940)
04-07-2006 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Larni
04-07-2006 9:35 AM


Perhaps off topic but IMHO worthwhile
So....I can do whatever I like and it will make no difference at all?
As long as I believe in god.
I could shoot someone and believing in god would make that cool?
Many believers in GOD, specifically Christians, would answer no to that.
We believe that the gift of salvation was freely given to all, you, me, everyone. It is not based on belief, or anything else.
But, you can refuse the gift by your behavior. It's not that good behavior earns anything, that's already there. Bad behavior though can bring on sanctions. That is no different than what we see in evryday life.
You have been given a life to lead. You can do pretty much what you want, hold any job, live most anywhere you want, marry the person of your dreams. But bad behavior can bring on sanctions. If you rob someone and get caught you go to jail. If you kill someone and get caught, you go to jail.
The only difference is that GOD is the perfect judge. He knows what you've done. Even if no human catches you, he will.
GOD has asked us to follow two rules. The first is to love GOD, and he tells us how to do that. Matthew 25 contains the clearest explanation of that. You love GOD by those little things you do to help others.
That brings us to the second rule. Love others as you love yourself. Too often the second part of that rule gets left off. You must first love yourself.
Love GOD and love others as you love yourself.
It really is that simple.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 9:35 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 11:26 AM jar has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 301 (301943)
04-07-2006 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by jar
04-07-2006 10:14 AM


Re: Not sure I understand that reasoning
What it means is that beliefs will always be individual and personal
What does this mean? I, for example, believe in the theory of evolution. Is my belief "individual and personal"? If it's individual and personal, it sounds like something that I would believe but that no one else would or could. Something that's "individual" is distinctly for one individual. If I say, "This is my individual and personal chair," that means, I suppose, that only I sit in that chair, or that that chair is assigned to me.
The quality of "individual and personal" doesn't sound like something that one would apply to a "belief"--unless it was extraordinarily eccentric.
When combined with the statements that followed, it means that eforts such as this thread, while they may be fun, are necessarily pointless and futile.
How do you know they are pointless and futile? Maybe we can figure things out deductively.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 04-07-2006 10:18 AM
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 04-07-2006 10:19 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 04-07-2006 10:14 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 04-07-2006 11:30 AM robinrohan has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 117 of 301 (301950)
04-07-2006 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by New Cat's Eye
04-07-2006 11:10 AM


Re: Satheism, Watheism
Catholic Scientist writes:
For this reason, Satheism is as logically ridiculous as theism.
You are of course bang on the money with this one.
Before one can ask for evidence of the non existance of a god one must entertain it as a possiblity.
I've asked at least twice for any reason to entertain the existance of a god and have had no reply.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-07-2006 11:10 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-07-2006 11:39 AM Larni has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 301 (301953)
04-07-2006 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Larni
04-07-2006 11:09 AM


Please show how this is true.
I would think one would have to be an agnostic due to lack of evidence.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 04-07-2006 10:25 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 11:09 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 11:32 AM robinrohan has not replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 119 of 301 (301954)
04-07-2006 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by jar
04-07-2006 11:12 AM


Re: Perhaps off topic but IMHO worthwhile
I take all that on board but it conflicts with the Gospel of Iano where I could apparently be a cannible and still get my ticket to heaven.
These conflicting view reinforce (in my mind) that the xian god is what ever anyone thinks it is: I have never heard two xians who agree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 04-07-2006 11:12 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by jar, posted 04-07-2006 11:38 AM Larni has replied

JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 120 of 301 (301955)
04-07-2006 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by robinrohan
04-05-2006 8:19 AM


Atheism is a leap of faith
Now, if one wanted to build a case against the existence of such a God, what sort of argument could one put forth?
Personally I think atheism is as much a leap of faith as belief in a god. Agnosticism is the rational, sceptical position.
As an atheist I can give you some of the arguments that lead me to believe that all this supernatural stuff is nonsense (multiple, contradictory religions, the usefulness of naturalistic explanations vs the worthlessness of supernatural explanations, etc.). But in the end all these arguments are inductive - a single exception would falsify them.
So no, I don't think you'll find a kick-ass argument that will prove things one way or the other.
This message has been edited by JavaMan, 04-07-2006 11:29 AM

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by robinrohan, posted 04-05-2006 8:19 AM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by kjsimons, posted 04-07-2006 11:40 AM JavaMan has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024