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Author Topic:   The Case Against the Existence of God
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 301 (301513)
04-06-2006 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by robinrohan
04-06-2006 11:13 AM


One can dismiss the Bible entirely and still believe in such a God as described in the OP.
Or, one can accept the bible fully yet still not believe in the god you describe in the OP.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by robinrohan, posted 04-06-2006 11:13 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by robinrohan, posted 04-06-2006 11:30 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 301 (301527)
04-06-2006 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by robinrohan
04-06-2006 11:30 AM


Robin, you are still just defining YOUR god.
There are logical problems with the concept of a pagan-style God.
May well be. So far you have not been able to convince many of the truth of that assertion. But I was not speaking of some pagan god but rather of what I see as the Christian GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by robinrohan, posted 04-06-2006 11:30 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by robinrohan, posted 04-06-2006 11:36 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 301 (301533)
04-06-2006 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by robinrohan
04-06-2006 11:36 AM


Re: Robin, you are still just defining YOUR god.
Ican certainly show where there are differences from the god in your OP.
In the OP you speculate
I would, for the purposes of this argument, like to concentrate on one concept of God only. This God we can call the "God of Western Tradition." This God is all-powerful, all-good, and all-knowing. He is an ideal Being, the answer to everything. This God's thoughts are always objective, never subjective. This God's thoughts about morality, for example, are as objective as His thoughts about mathematics.
The Christian GOD that I worship is
  • all powerful.
  • complete.
His thoughts about morality are subjective.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by robinrohan, posted 04-06-2006 11:36 AM robinrohan has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 301 (301566)
04-06-2006 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Modulous
04-06-2006 12:58 PM


Re: The futility of a case against the unfalsifiable
Ahh gotcha, something along the lines of "Why has God created a universe which the majority of is not going to be seen by anybody alive because the majority of it is massively lethal to life, or at least prohibitively distant."
But again, does that not presuppose that the purpose of the Universe is dependant on humans seeing or experienciencing it? That to me is assigning some human centric limitations on GOD.
IMHO GOD did not create the universe simply as a playground for man. What Her purposes were or might be I don't know, but it does seem somewhat Human centric to think that GOD is but an agent of man.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Modulous, posted 04-06-2006 12:58 PM Modulous has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 44 of 301 (301594)
04-06-2006 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by docpotato
04-06-2006 2:06 PM


Not sure I understand that reasoning
The fact that I feel pain negates an all-good, all-powerful God.
So the all-good. all-powerful god would be one that didn't give you a sense of pain? Huh?
The all-good god would rather you just leave your hand in the fire until it burns off?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by docpotato, posted 04-06-2006 2:06 PM docpotato has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by docpotato, posted 04-06-2006 2:14 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 49 of 301 (301604)
04-06-2006 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by docpotato
04-06-2006 2:14 PM


Re: Not sure I understand that reasoning
The fact that I feel pain negates an all-good, all-powerful God.
I still don't understand that reasoning. Challenge is always interesting, usually good. But as in all of these discussions, in the end it comes down to two points.
One is that different people hold different beliefs.
The second is that attempts to prove or disprove GOD are fated to fail.
If GOD exists, She exists reagrdless of any evidence that shows She does not exist.
If GOD does not exist, then It does not exist reagardless of any evidence that He does exist.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by docpotato, posted 04-06-2006 2:14 PM docpotato has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by robinrohan, posted 04-06-2006 2:25 PM jar has replied
 Message 51 by docpotato, posted 04-06-2006 2:28 PM jar has not replied
 Message 78 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 4:37 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 52 of 301 (301614)
04-06-2006 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by robinrohan
04-06-2006 2:25 PM


Re: Not sure I understand that reasoning
Read on.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by robinrohan, posted 04-06-2006 2:25 PM robinrohan has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 110 of 301 (301915)
04-07-2006 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 4:37 AM


Re: Not sure I understand that reasoning
It is related to the two following statements. What it means is that beliefs will always be individual and personal. When combined with the statements that followed, it means that eforts such as this thread, while they may be fun, are necessarily pointless and futile.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 4:37 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 11:17 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 115 of 301 (301940)
04-07-2006 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Larni
04-07-2006 9:35 AM


Perhaps off topic but IMHO worthwhile
So....I can do whatever I like and it will make no difference at all?
As long as I believe in god.
I could shoot someone and believing in god would make that cool?
Many believers in GOD, specifically Christians, would answer no to that.
We believe that the gift of salvation was freely given to all, you, me, everyone. It is not based on belief, or anything else.
But, you can refuse the gift by your behavior. It's not that good behavior earns anything, that's already there. Bad behavior though can bring on sanctions. That is no different than what we see in evryday life.
You have been given a life to lead. You can do pretty much what you want, hold any job, live most anywhere you want, marry the person of your dreams. But bad behavior can bring on sanctions. If you rob someone and get caught you go to jail. If you kill someone and get caught, you go to jail.
The only difference is that GOD is the perfect judge. He knows what you've done. Even if no human catches you, he will.
GOD has asked us to follow two rules. The first is to love GOD, and he tells us how to do that. Matthew 25 contains the clearest explanation of that. You love GOD by those little things you do to help others.
That brings us to the second rule. Love others as you love yourself. Too often the second part of that rule gets left off. You must first love yourself.
Love GOD and love others as you love yourself.
It really is that simple.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 9:35 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 11:26 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 121 of 301 (301957)
04-07-2006 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 11:17 AM


Re: Not sure I understand that reasoning
What does this mean? I, for example, believe in the theory of evolution. Is my belief "individual and personal"?
We may well be falling into dueling definitions, but I'll try to answer.
I don't believe in the Theory of Evolution. I accept the Theory of Evolution as the best explanation I've heard yet, but that is based on the available evidence. That evidence is so overwhelming IMHO that to deny it would requre an act of Wilfull Ignorance.
The existence of GOD though is something I believe in. I believe that the evidence is there, but also realize that that evidence is nowhere as overwhelming as for the TOE, nor is much of it subject to scientific exploration.
How do you know they are pointless and futile? Maybe we can figure things out deductively.
I laid out the reasoning for that.
If GOD exists, It exists regardless of any evidence that She does not exist.
If GOD does not exist, She does not exist regardless of any evidence He does exist.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 11:17 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 12:03 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 123 of 301 (301960)
04-07-2006 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Larni
04-07-2006 11:26 AM


Re: Perhaps off topic but IMHO worthwhile
These conflicting view reinforce (in my mind) that the xian god is what ever anyone thinks it is: I have never heard two xians who agree.
One of the things I like about the Episcopal Church is that there will be atleast one other Episcopalian that agrees with your point of view. In most cases that is.
Robin Williams writes:
10. No snake handling.
9. You can believe in dinosaurs.
8. Male and female God created them; male and female we ordain them.
7. You don't have to check your brains at the door.
6. Pew aerobics.
5. Church year is color-coded.
4. Free wine on Sunday.
3. All of the pageantry - none of the guilt.
2. You don't have to know how to swim to get baptized.
And the Number One reason to be an Episcopalian:
1. No matter what you believe, there's bound to be at least one other Episcopalian who agrees with you.
But that is not the point. In these discussions, all we can do is post the best defense of our positions possible. iano will post his, I post mine, and you the reader will judge.
I will never ask someone to believe something based on my opinion. That is up to the individual. I will though try my best to make my position clear. If you can understand my position, even if you disagree with it, then I suceeded. If though my position does not answer the questions you raise, then I have failed.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 11:26 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 11:46 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 131 of 301 (301984)
04-07-2006 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Larni
04-07-2006 11:46 AM


on Following a Religion.
If I ever was going to follow a religion, I think your's sounds pretty damn civilised.
Well, perhaps you are following a religion. If you don't mind, I'd like to return for a moment to Matthew 25.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
Note the verse beginning with 37. The folk selected as sheep are really surprised. They never expected to be chosen.
If you try to do right instead or wrong, if you do the little things in everyday life, if you help someone unload their shopping cart at the checkout counter, open doors for folk, stoop down when talking to kids so you are at their level, help get stuff down from shelves for someone who cannot reach it, then you are following Christianity.
There's no big requirements there. No need to acknowledge GOD, no need to follow forms or rituals, just try to do what's right.
None of us knows for sure if GOD exists, or if there is life after death, or if there is heaven or hell, but GOD knows and understands that. She doesn't ask us to do miracles. Just try our best.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 11:46 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 12:30 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 132 of 301 (301989)
04-07-2006 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 12:03 PM


Then why this thread?
You can repeating this incantatory formula as if it contained some great truth. I don't think anyone will disagree with you about the fact that what we think about God does not affect whether He exists or not. You can stop repeating that. We all agree with you.
Well, since everyone agrees with me, perhaps it does contain some great truth. LOL
And if you agree with it, then why a thread called "The Case Against the Existence of God?"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 12:03 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 12:24 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 141 of 301 (302004)
04-07-2006 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 12:24 PM


Re: Then why this thread?
I am trying to find out if he does in fact exist or not.
But that is something we will not likely learn while still alive. Once dead, perhaps, only perhaps, we will know. It's an interesting thing to speculate about, but nowhere near as important, IMHO, as learning how to live your life.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 12:24 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 04-07-2006 12:46 PM jar has not replied
 Message 158 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 3:00 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 145 of 301 (302016)
04-07-2006 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Larni
04-07-2006 12:30 PM


Re: on Following a Religion.
Have a safe trip. And if you ever want to exdplore why I believe in GOD or what it is I believe, please feel free to ask.
And yes, GOD does make me feel warm and loved as well.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 12:30 PM Larni has not replied

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