The Case Against the Existence of God

Does the fact that he doesn't require you to live by any rules at all - not even common sense ones - in order for him to offer you the gift of eternal life (and a outstandingly blissful one at that) float your boat at all?What God wants is that you want him, not, as you imply here - that you're prepared to cut a deal with him. His viewpoint is that there is nothing you can do which would suffice as a way to earning eternal life - if earning it is what you insist on doing. You see, it is not a couple of 'common sense' rules he asks you to follow. If earning it is what you want to do then follow them all to the letter is the canyon to be bridged. You will not succeed of course: you know it and so does he. Thus, He has to give it to you for free or there's no way you can have it at all.All one can do with a gift proferred is accept or reject it. There are no other options.Reason for belief: God as he is, who would persist in offering you such a gift - whilst you (in his view, although you might not think so) spit at his face - is demonstrating a level of love than may one day melt your (in his view) rock hard heart.

Its more like you born on your way to hell. You could live as 'good' a life as Mother Theresa and such living wouldn't affect the destination stamped on your ticket. Murder/don't murder doesn't affect things in the least. People are deliverered at birth over a sheer drop into the Abyss. Thats the default. Whether they are nice to each other on the way down or not is not all that relevant. God offers to arrest the fall and pull you to safety. As a gift.One can argue about the justness (according to our definition of it) of that. Or ask questions as to why. None of it arrests the speed of descent nor the destination being headed towards one jot. Patently the inability to be able to find intellectual coherence in denying God will not a point of defence. "If it were then only the intellectually able would have been able to get to heaven" might be his response on the day of Judgement.

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We have no record of his date of birth, yet all the worlds chronology is linked to it

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Hw never wrote a book, yet more books have been written about him than about anyone else in history and the output is still accelerating. The nearest thing we have to his biography has now been translated into over more than 2,000 languages

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He never painted a picture, or composed any poetry or music, yet nobodies life and teaching have inspired a greater output of songs, plays, poetry, films, videos and other art forms. One film based on his recorded words, has been produced in over 900 languages and has believed to have been seen by more than any other film in history

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He never raised an army, yet millons of people have laid down their lives in his cause and every year, thousands more do so.

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Except for one brief period in his childhood, his travels were limited to an area the size of Wales, but his influence today is worldwide and his followers constitute the largest religious grouping the world has ever known

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He had no formal education, but thousands of universities, seminaries colleges and schools have been founded in his name

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His public teaching lasted three just years and was restricted to one small country, yet purpose built satellites and some of the worlds largest radio and television networks now beam his message around the globe

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He set foot in just two countries, yet an organization committed to his cause claims to make regular flights to more countries than any commercial airline

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He was virtually unknown outside his native country yet the current edition of Encylopedia Britannica, the entry under his name runs to 30,000 words

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He is by far the most controversial person in history. Nobody has attracted most adoration or opposition, devotion or criticism and nobody elses teachings has ever been more ferverently receieved or fiercely rejected. For centuries, every recorded word he spoke has been relentlessly analysed by theologians, philosophers and others. On the day this sentence is being written (and read) millions of people are studying waht he said and did and trying to apply the significance of his words to their lives.

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Even the most dyed in the wool sceptics must acknowledge that this man was something special and any open minded student of human history should agree that he deserves meticulous attention

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From John Blanchards book "Does God believe in Atheists. p.556-7

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The population of the world in increasing by about 70,000 people every day and the current total of all the people who have ever lived is put at something like 60 billion. Google the person Jesus and note the number of pages available. Google anyone else: Buddha, Mohammed, Confusious , Zarasthrusa, Thor... or any other god on the illusionary menu for that matter.Jesus. The most notable person in 60,000,000,000 persons.I understand the search for God might seem daunting at the start. But there are ways to whittle things down and provide some common sense leads as to which way to look.Or you can be deflected by the comparatively infantile "Do you believe in the Invisable Pink Unicorn" 'intellectual' arguments.

It would make a difference and no it wouldn't be cool (whatever that means). But it would have no bearing on your receipt of the gift of eternal life nor on that being outstandingly blissful.Whilst a person profferred a gift can only either accept or reject it (you don't earn true gifts), the person offering it can only give it or not. A gift isn't a gift if it is conditional on your behaviour prior to or subsequent to you being given it. That would be something else. A wage or reward perhaps -but not a giftAnyway, the word belief has enough difficulty as to its definition to suppose that there may be a little more to it than is meeting your eyes. One of the consequences of belief is that God takes up residence within you. Now that won't necessarily guarentee that you won't commit murder (nor even masturbation). Suffice to say than things...er..change on his arrival. It wasn't an attempt at proof. It was an attempt at indicating that in deciding to look (which I take you haven't at this point) there are ways in which one might whittle down the seemingly bewildering amount of options out there.A person who was honestly searching as to God or no, might not think it strange to check out what the most significant person in the history of mankind has said on the matter. When standing thus one might do well to look upon that on which one is standing

You're implying here that our being given eternal life (or not) depends (or should depend) on our behaviour no matter what we believe. This is a very natural thing to think - and so, man-made Religions, (even some which call themselves 'Christian') have that man-derived-intuition at the root. Jars Christianity is a variation ion of this, where salvation is given to all but we can lose it through behaviour. Gain it through behaviour/lose it through behaviour: two sides of the same, "our behaviour determines whether we reach eternal life" coin. Eternal life is in our hands iowThat all world Religions in a nutshell at their root.Then there is Christianity. Its counter-intuitive. God gives salvation and it is not dependant on our behaviour. If Hitler believed he is in heaven. If Pope John Paul II believed, he is in heaven. Crazy heh?Now you might say "I think Mother Theresa did great work and she should be in heaven. And Hitler was a real stinker so he should rot in Hell (if either exists). Yuo are applying your own standards shared though they may be with many others. But many thought and think what Hitler did was fine and many opposed Mother Theresa in her work. They didn't share your standards. Not that either point of view matters much in the end. Obviously Gods standard is the one that must apply (if he exists)And according to his standard, both Mother Theresa and Hitler stank to high heaven before they believed (if they believed in him). Gods standard is so high that it is the equivilent of someone looking down from the moon and trying to discern the relative height of two grains of sand on the beach. From the moon the look to be at exactly the same distance from the moon.So everyone, irrespective of title or religion is as far removed from meeting Gods standards. There is no point in you, another grain of sand pointing to grain-of-sand Mother Theresa and shouting that it is closer to the moon than grain-of-sand Hilter. God on the moon doesn't see the difference. And its again, what he thinks, you might agree (if this God exists) that matters.That's the distance that separates our actions from Gods standards. It is the same as the distance that separates the power of creativity of God (if he made all this) from our own power of creativity. No comparison in standards of goodness/no comparison in standards of creativityAnd it should be obvious that if this were the case then trying to attain to Gods standards as a way to eternal life (for he tolerates no less in the end) is a fools errant. Grains of sand shooting for the moon.And God being God, being love as well as wrath and justice, knows that it is impossible so did something about it. Something that would make it possible for grains of sand to be taken to the moon (in terms of goodness). He offers us a gift, a robe of goodness to wear over our shabbyness. He offers to cloth us with his goodness. And whatever his standard of goodness (for there is much debate about it here), were we clothed in it then it would naturally match his standard.And then there would be nothing to bar the way to eternal lifeThe robe is called Jesus. We can take it or leave it. Its offered free simply because we have nothing to pay for it with. What could we offer God to pay for his own son.And after accepting the gift realisations as to cost begin to enter ones thoughts. And one is left open mouthed at what God has done. Ones gratitude towards God tends to make one want to murder and masturbate less. So whilst I'm sure you will find (God willing) a lot of people who were murderers, rapists, paodphiles before they believed, you might find a lot less who did the same things after they believed. And I'm sure you will find some who were Hindu/Muslim/New Age charity workers before they beleived too

You're implying here that our being given eternal life (or not) depends (or should depend) on our behaviour no matter what we believe. This is a very natural thing to think - and so, man-made Religions, (even some which call themselves 'Christian') have that man-derived-intuition at the root. Jars Christianity is a variation of this, where salvation is given to all but we can lose it through behaviour. Gain it through behaviour/lose it through behaviour: two sides of the same, "our behaviour determines whether we reach eternal life" coin. Eternal life is in our hands iowThat all world Religions in a nutshell at their root.Then there is Christianity. Its counter-intuitive. God gives salvation and it is not dependant on our behaviour. If Hitler believed he is in heaven. If Pope John Paul II believed, he is in heaven. Crazy heh?Now you might say "I think Mother Theresa did great work and she should be in heaven. And Hitler was a real stinker so he should rot in Hell (if either exists)". You are applying your own standards, shared though they may be with many others. But many thought and think what Hitler did was great and many opposed Mother Theresa in her work. They didn't share your standards. Not that either point of view matters much in the end. Obviously Gods standard is the one that must apply (if he exists).And according to his standard, both Mother Theresa and Hitler stank to high heaven up until the time they believed(assuming either eventually did). Gods standard is so high that it is the equivilent of someone looking down from the moon and trying to discern the relative height of two grains of sand on the beach. From the moon, two grains of sand look to be at exactly the same distance from the moon.So everyone, irrespective of title or Religion or country of birth is born (and maintain a position of being) as far removed from meeting Gods standards as they could possibly be. There is no point in you, another grain of sand, presumably somewhere between Hitler and Mother Theresa, pointing to relative-to-you-high-up-grain-of-sand Mother Theresa and shouting that it is closer to the moon than relative-to-you-low-down-grain-of-sand Hilter. God on the moon doesn't see the difference. And its again, what he thinks, you might agree (if this God exists) that matters. All our intellectualising, hatred of paradox, refusal to accept the counter-intuitive matters notAnd it should be obvious that if this were the case (God standards as to what constitutes 'good behaviour' are what they are) then trying to attain to Gods standards as a way to eternal life (for he tolerates no less than meeting his standards in the end) is a fools errant. Grains of sand can't jump over the moon.And God being God, being love as well as wrath and justice, knows that it is impossible for us to achieve - be it trying to meet his standard or going to church, or praying or meditating or whatever. And loving us as he does, he did something about it. Something that would make it possible for far-away-grains-of-sand to be brought right up to him. To be taken to the moon. He offers us a gift, a rocket ship called Perfect Goodness. A rocket ship called JesusIts a bit too simplistic to say it as follows, but we can accept or reject to offer. Its offered as a free gift simply because we have nothing to pay for it with. What could we offer God that would be fair exhange for what he offers. How much does eternal life cost? And for us to recognise the offer we need God to bring us to the point of realising that there is an offer.Thats the kicker. If we believe it is because God brought us to that point. He does the saving: the before, during and after. All we can do, if we do anything at all, is not run from the launch pad

Hopefully my last post clarified this a bit. To address this point however. As there will be greater and lesser in the kingdom of heaven (what we do post-believing does matter - just not for eternal life) so I imagine there will be greater and lesser in Hell. The environment of Hell, as I understand it, will involve being exposed to the full measure of ones sin being exposed to Gods wrath. Thus the greater the sin the greater the punishment. In heaven the greater and lesser will be perfectly content so I reckon that all in Hell will be perfectly in torment. According to Gods standards - which says that being angry with someone is the same as murdering them. If Hitler is there as a mass murderer then there will be a lot of mass-angry with their fellow man-ers there alongside him.It may seem unfair but that is the way it is. You can argue all you like now. Everyones God-given privilege. A time will come when the argument will be stopped and every mounth will be silenced. Don't wait til then to seek. Impossible as it is he does know. The question is whether he could change things so that it wouldn't be the way it is. Another set-up where for example all would get to heaven no matter what or all would get to heaven who achieved a certain grade short of his standard...or whatever. That supposes the God can do anything - which is a bit of a mis-application of the word omnipotent. Could God truly and completely cease to exist. And having done so, make himself re-exist?Could God act counter to who he is? If his very nature is to hate sin and be unable to overlook it then that is a characteristic of him and there is no reason to think even he can change it. And if only way possible for him to deal with our sin was to sacrifice someone sinless and impute (or transmit) Jesus' righteousness onto anyone who believed well then that is the case too. It is easy to bandy words about which you can have no insight into, around. Belief/Faith/Born Again etc. How would one who doesn't know what it is to have God take up residence in them know what effect the that is going to have. There is a positive (as I said before - sheer overwhelming gratitude) which tends to make one turn from sin (repent) and a negative (God disciplines those whom he loves). There is talk in the NT of God disciplining people up to the point of causing them to 'sleep' Sleep is the term used for believers who physically die. He won't be taken for a fool by anyone: believer or no. A believers viewpoint is to want to follow Gods lead - even when they are sinning. I don't know of any survey of Christian who kill and I wouldn't be able to figure out how one could carry one out (how does one recognise a Christian for sure in order do a poll?)As to moral compass. The moral compass is the same one - except that rather than it being a list of do's and don't ...a diktat handed down from an unknown God, they become something sought after for doing because of love for the person who has given them as a guide.God is personal. He deals with believers one on one. Face to face as it were.