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Author Topic:   The Case Against the Existence of God
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 136 of 301 (301998)
04-07-2006 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 12:18 PM


Re: What is pretend about living?
A subjective belief is one that has no logical basis.
A belief is inherently subjective.
What it says can be objective, but that it is believed is subjective. Perhaps you are thinking of "proposition" rather than "belief".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 12:18 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 12:27 PM nwr has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 137 of 301 (301999)
04-07-2006 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by iano
04-07-2006 11:48 AM


I'm sure your god can tell the difference between Therresa and Hitler. After all it is omniscient.
Your god does not know that trying to attain his standard is impossible: it could change the human condition with it's omnipotence. It would not need to use a cats paw (Jesus).
iano writes:
So whilst I'm sure you will find (God willing) a lot of people who were murderers, rapists, paodphiles before they believed, you might find a lot less who did the same things after they believed.
Why? It does not matter to them, they get to heaven anyway. You religion seems to offer no moral compass. This is only thing I can see that any religion has going for it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by iano, posted 04-07-2006 11:48 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by iano, posted 04-07-2006 1:40 PM Larni has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 301 (302000)
04-07-2006 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by nwr
04-07-2006 12:25 PM


Re: What is pretend about living?
A belief is inherently subjective.
What's your definition of belief?
Can't I say, "I believe in the theory of evolution" and be using the word correctly?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by nwr, posted 04-07-2006 12:25 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by nwr, posted 04-07-2006 1:52 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 152 by lfen, posted 04-07-2006 2:20 PM robinrohan has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 139 of 301 (302001)
04-07-2006 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by New Cat's Eye
04-07-2006 11:59 AM


Re: Satheism, Watheism
Then entertain the Green Lantern Hypothosis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-07-2006 11:59 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 140 of 301 (302002)
04-07-2006 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by jar
04-07-2006 12:06 PM


Re: on Following a Religion.
Can't argue with that. In truth it does make me feel warm when you put it like that.
It's nice to be nice.
Got to dash, home time.
Ed: Bloopers
This message has been edited by Larni, 04-07-2006 12:30 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 04-07-2006 12:06 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 141 of 301 (302004)
04-07-2006 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 12:24 PM


Re: Then why this thread?
I am trying to find out if he does in fact exist or not.
But that is something we will not likely learn while still alive. Once dead, perhaps, only perhaps, we will know. It's an interesting thing to speculate about, but nowhere near as important, IMHO, as learning how to live your life.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 12:24 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 04-07-2006 12:46 PM jar has not replied
 Message 158 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 3:00 PM jar has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 301 (302010)
04-07-2006 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Larni
04-07-2006 12:27 PM


Re: Satheism, Watheism
Then entertain the Green Lantern Hypothosis.
Absolutely. It has been entertained and considered.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 12:27 PM Larni has not replied

Chronos
Member (Idle past 6225 days)
Posts: 102
From: Macomb, Mi, USA
Joined: 10-23-2005


Message 143 of 301 (302012)
04-07-2006 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 4:22 AM


If these pixies are the creators of the universe, then they are just another name for God. Otherwise, they are a different kind of entity altogether and cannot be compared to the concept of God. They are extraneous.
They didn't create the universe. Whether or not they have a particular use is independent of their existence. Besides, how do you know they aren't the only reason God doesn't poof out of existence? Pixies sustain God; God sustains universe. If you believe otherwise, what reason do you have to do so? Do you have some sort of deductively valid proof that God can remain extant without my pixies?
This message has been edited by Chronos, 04-07-2006 12:45 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 4:22 AM robinrohan has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 144 of 301 (302013)
04-07-2006 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by jar
04-07-2006 12:31 PM


Re: Then why this thread?
I am trying to find out if he does in fact exist or not.
But that is something we will not likely learn while still alive. Once dead, perhaps, only perhaps, we will know.
Well, jar, some of us know He exists and we know that we know it.
I'm curious where Robin's thread will take him although I don't think there is any evidence for God that anyone at this stage of Fallenness can recognize, other than the scriptures which were given for that reason. If you don't believe the witnesses you have no evidence, and so far he doesn't believe the witnesses.
Of course, for the most part neither do you. Which is why you can't say with certainty that God exists.
ABE: As for a case against God, I suppose evolution is such a case and Robin believes that.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-07-2006 01:01 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 145 of 301 (302016)
04-07-2006 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Larni
04-07-2006 12:30 PM


Re: on Following a Religion.
Have a safe trip. And if you ever want to exdplore why I believe in GOD or what it is I believe, please feel free to ask.
And yes, GOD does make me feel warm and loved as well.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 12:30 PM Larni has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 146 of 301 (302017)
04-07-2006 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Larni
04-07-2006 11:06 AM


This means that all the murderers in the world who believe in your god rub shoulders with with all the virtuous (who believe in your god) in heaven, where as the fellow who spends his whole life working for charity in India (being Hindu) would not get into heaven and would at best go to purgatory.
You're implying here that our being given eternal life (or not) depends (or should depend) on our behaviour no matter what we believe. This is a very natural thing to think - and so, man-made Religions, (even some which call themselves 'Christian') have that man-derived-intuition at the root. Jars Christianity is a variation of this, where salvation is given to all but we can lose it through behaviour. Gain it through behaviour/lose it through behaviour: two sides of the same, "our behaviour determines whether we reach eternal life" coin. Eternal life is in our hands iow
That all world Religions in a nutshell at their root.
Then there is Christianity. Its counter-intuitive. God gives salvation and it is not dependant on our behaviour. If Hitler believed he is in heaven. If Pope John Paul II believed, he is in heaven. Crazy heh?
Now you might say "I think Mother Theresa did great work and she should be in heaven. And Hitler was a real stinker so he should rot in Hell (if either exists)". You are applying your own standards, shared though they may be with many others. But many thought and think what Hitler did was great and many opposed Mother Theresa in her work. They didn't share your standards. Not that either point of view matters much in the end. Obviously Gods standard is the one that must apply (if he exists).
And according to his standard, both Mother Theresa and Hitler stank to high heaven up until the time they believed(assuming either eventually did). Gods standard is so high that it is the equivilent of someone looking down from the moon and trying to discern the relative height of two grains of sand on the beach. From the moon, two grains of sand look to be at exactly the same distance from the moon.
So everyone, irrespective of title or Religion or country of birth is born (and maintain a position of being) as far removed from meeting Gods standards as they could possibly be. There is no point in you, another grain of sand, presumably somewhere between Hitler and Mother Theresa, pointing to relative-to-you-high-up-grain-of-sand Mother Theresa and shouting that it is closer to the moon than relative-to-you-low-down-grain-of-sand Hilter. God on the moon doesn't see the difference. And its again, what he thinks, you might agree (if this God exists) that matters. All our intellectualising, hatred of paradox, refusal to accept the counter-intuitive matters not
And it should be obvious that if this were the case (God standards as to what constitutes 'good behaviour' are what they are) then trying to attain to Gods standards as a way to eternal life (for he tolerates no less than meeting his standards in the end) is a fools errant. Grains of sand can't jump over the moon.
And God being God, being love as well as wrath and justice, knows that it is impossible for us to achieve - be it trying to meet his standard or going to church, or praying or meditating or whatever. And loving us as he does, he did something about it. Something that would make it possible for far-away-grains-of-sand to be brought right up to him. To be taken to the moon. He offers us a gift, a rocket ship called Perfect Goodness. A rocket ship called Jesus
Its a bit too simplistic to say it as follows, but we can accept or reject to offer. Its offered as a free gift simply because we have nothing to pay for it with. What could we offer God that would be fair exhange for what he offers. How much does eternal life cost? And for us to recognise the offer we need God to bring us to the point of realising that there is an offer.
Thats the kicker. If we believe it is because God brought us to that point. He does the saving: the before, during and after. All we can do, if we do anything at all, is not run from the launch pad

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 11:06 AM Larni has not replied

1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 147 of 301 (302023)
04-07-2006 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Faith
04-07-2006 12:46 PM


Re: Then why this thread?
Faith, your name says it all. There are certain things that we can say for certain to be true and factual. Mathmatical proofs are impossible to argue with. ie: 1+1=2. If someone wants evidence as to why this is so then it can be expressed in many ways. 1 apple, and then get another apple then you have 2 apples. If something can be shown to occur the same way over and over like the reaction of 1 Hydrogens plus 2 Oxygen make water then it can be expressed mathmatically as well. Or shown physically in a lab.
Now to my point. If I say that I know for a fact that God exist.
Then I must base this knowlege on facts. As a truth It must be somehow expressed in a way that is universally accepted to anyone who would care to inquire.
The problem is that some people do not distinquish what they KNOW to be true from they're beliefs. As far as they are concerned it is not a matter of discussion. There beliefs are beyound reproach. Which is fine. But understand you are dealing with people who do not hold those same beliefs to the same standard that you do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 04-07-2006 12:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 04-07-2006 1:21 PM 1.61803 has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 148 of 301 (302027)
04-07-2006 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by 1.61803
04-07-2006 1:05 PM


Oh but it is based on fact
Now to my point. If I say that I know for a fact that God exist.
Then I must base this knowlege on facts.
I do base my knowledge on facts. Facts I learned from witnesses to God. I believe in the existence of Australia by exactly the same means.
There is also an element of personal experience that enters into it after believing that much, but then my element of experience is another fact I can offer to you in the role of witness to you, which you can discredit just as you can discredit the witnesses who wrote the Bible.
As a truth It must be somehow expressed in a way that is universally accepted to anyone who would care to inquire.
Did you mean "accepted by" or "acceptable to?" In any case I believe it is expressed in a way that is accessible to anyone. If you discredit the witnesses because you reject certain possibilities a priori, such as for instance the existence of angels or other unseen things, the fault for disbelieving the witnesses is yours and not any insufficiency of evidence.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-07-2006 01:36 PM
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-07-2006 01:39 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by 1.61803, posted 04-07-2006 1:05 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by ringo, posted 04-07-2006 1:49 PM Faith has replied
 Message 154 by 1.61803, posted 04-07-2006 2:35 PM Faith has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 149 of 301 (302037)
04-07-2006 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Larni
04-07-2006 12:26 PM


I'm sure your god can tell the difference between Therresa and Hitler. After all it is omniscient.
Hopefully my last post clarified this a bit. To address this point however. As there will be greater and lesser in the kingdom of heaven (what we do post-believing does matter - just not for eternal life) so I imagine there will be greater and lesser in Hell. The environment of Hell, as I understand it, will involve being exposed to the full measure of ones sin being exposed to Gods wrath. Thus the greater the sin the greater the punishment. In heaven the greater and lesser will be perfectly content so I reckon that all in Hell will be perfectly in torment. According to Gods standards - which says that being angry with someone is the same as murdering them. If Hitler is there as a mass murderer then there will be a lot of mass-angry with their fellow man-ers there alongside him.
It may seem unfair but that is the way it is. You can argue all you like now. Everyones God-given privilege. A time will come when the argument will be stopped and every mounth will be silenced. Don't wait til then to seek.
Your god does not know that trying to attain his standard is impossible: it could change the human condition with it's omnipotence. It would not need to use a cats paw (Jesus).
Impossible as it is he does know. The question is whether he could change things so that it wouldn't be the way it is. Another set-up where for example all would get to heaven no matter what or all would get to heaven who achieved a certain grade short of his standard...or whatever. That supposes the God can do anything - which is a bit of a mis-application of the word omnipotent. Could God truly and completely cease to exist. And having done so, make himself re-exist?
Could God act counter to who he is? If his very nature is to hate sin and be unable to overlook it then that is a characteristic of him and there is no reason to think even he can change it. And if only way possible for him to deal with our sin was to sacrifice someone sinless and impute (or transmit) Jesus' righteousness onto anyone who believed well then that is the case too.
Why (would a murderer cease to murder after believing)? It does not matter to them, they get to heaven anyway. You religion seems to offer no moral compass. This is only thing I can see that any religion has going for it.
It is easy to bandy words about which you can have no insight into, around. Belief/Faith/Born Again etc. How would one who doesn't know what it is to have God take up residence in them know what effect the that is going to have. There is a positive (as I said before - sheer overwhelming gratitude) which tends to make one turn from sin (repent) and a negative (God disciplines those whom he loves). There is talk in the NT of God disciplining people up to the point of causing them to 'sleep' Sleep is the term used for believers who physically die. He won't be taken for a fool by anyone: believer or no. A believers viewpoint is to want to follow Gods lead - even when they are sinning. I don't know of any survey of Christian who kill and I wouldn't be able to figure out how one could carry one out (how does one recognise a Christian for sure in order do a poll?)
As to moral compass. The moral compass is the same one - except that rather than it being a list of do's and don't ...a diktat handed down from an unknown God, they become something sought after for doing because of love for the person who has given them as a guide.
God is personal. He deals with believers one on one. Face to face as it were.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Larni, posted 04-07-2006 12:26 PM Larni has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 150 of 301 (302039)
04-07-2006 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Faith
04-07-2006 1:21 PM


Re: Oh but it is based on fact
Faith writes:
I do base my knowledge on facts. Facts I learned from witnesses to God. I believe in the existence of Australia by exactly the same means.
The difference is that anybody can verify or falsify the existence of Australia by going there. The same can not be sid for your so-called "knowledge" of God.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Faith, posted 04-07-2006 1:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 04-07-2006 2:32 PM ringo has replied

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