The Case Against the Existence of God

That is correct. We agree here you see. Believing in Australia is right, believing in Atlantis is not. We need a criterion for the difference and it isn't that you can go there, because the majority of those who believe in Australia have not gone there and never will. This is a puzzling statement. Are you saying that since belief in the existence of Australia happens to conform to the reality that Australia in fact exists is "pure coincidence?" What does that mean? Obviously not, nor was I suggesting this. Possibly, but I too "went" to Middle Earth, Treasure Island and Oz and did NOT find them to be quite real -- and neither did you. You are using the term in a different sense than I was using it. Well, it is though (at least the destination is if not my belief -- just to be a stickler for grammar). We are simply going to have to come up with some other set of criteria.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-07-2006 03:35 PM

I don't really see much of a difference but the Watheists say there's a difference. Maybe one will chime in and explain it to us. Nor will you ever be.

So God is this invented Being that we make up to correspond to parents and other figures who protect us. And this reliance on "faith" is something we are used to doing anyway, since we need faith to fulfill our day-to-day life. Faith builds our self-esteem.That may be, but we don't know that for sure.

What makes you so certain?

One of the things that Wittgenstein or was it the logical positivist observed was that discussions of the BIG topics in philosophy tended to lose sight of the logic of arguments because the topic was so beguiling.So instead of using the example of God, which is a major concept, why not look at other things that may or may not exist and see if we can prove their non existence. Some suggestions might be Atlantis, or Little People, or telepathy, or Centaurs, Pink Unicorns, etc. How would one prove the non existence of one of these? Or disprove the claims that they exist. Are there any proofs that they exist?On thing to consider is if a claim is falsifiable or not. If it's not falsifiable can it be disproven?lfen

All you have to do to "test" my facts is believe the witnesses, or the authorities as Robin puts it. Instead of raising a zillion objections to what they are saying, just make like a little child and believe that they are telling you the truth. It's that simple, as jar is so fond of saying about other stuff.As many of the greatest in Christendom have written, faith is the beginning of understanding, even the "substance" of things unseen says the scripture. I was just reading a new discovery for me, one Henry Scougal, who said faith functions as a sense, it teaches us about the things of the unseen world the same way that our senses teach us about the seen world. It starts with treating the witnesses as truthful. That means the Bible writers and the Bible believers and the Bible preachers. Just BELIEVE them for a change. That's ALL you are asked to do. REPENT AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL. Those were Jesus' first words.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-07-2006 03:46 PM

Well, yeah! okay, ummm, what do we know "for sure"?lfen

Because you can't logically conclude that something does not exist(except in math).

Ifen, I've been through this idea before with other posters on this thread. There was Dan with Green Lantern and somebody else with Pixies. It will not do.Such entities are not the same type of entity as the God I mentioned in the OP. Such entities are extraneous--very different from the concept of God.There's a 50/50 chance that an eternal Being created the universe. Or at least there is if we take into account only the fact of creation itself.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 04-07-2006 02:48 PMThis message has been edited by robinrohan, 04-07-2006 02:49 PM

This is a discription of enculturation and hynonsis not proof. If you enter any rationalized closed system such as Islam, Mormonism, Catholism etc. then many but not all people can get the results claimed. We can see this in the Hari Krishna's, the UFO believers etc. It's an ancient phenomena but it's not about facts or proofs it's about how the human brain works as it creates its experience of reality.lfen

You might if they have certain definite qualities which contradict existent things.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 04-07-2006 02:52 PM

But Faith, don't you see that this means that I can claim as fact that gnomes exist, and the only thing you have to do to test my fact is believe the witnesses. There are a lot of "witnesses" of gnomes, you know. Now, my argument may sound a bit silly because it involves gnomes. But it is the exact same argument as yours, which is about God.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

But it is possible to go to Australia, whereas it is not possible to go to Atlantis. The reasons for not going to Australia are completely different from the reasons for not going to Atlantis. There is no need for a different criterion. I'm saying it's pure coincidence that the belief is confirmed. Many (most?) beliefs have no basis in reality. If one belief coincides with reality, that's no vote of confidence for belief in general. Then explain how you are using it differently - and remember that we are talking about the context of "going" to Australia as compared to "going" to those other places. Sorry, do you have an English translation for that sentence? I think it would be simpler if you would just use words like "fact" the same way that everybody else does.

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for example?And how will you be sure these qualities are definite?

I think another difference between believing in God on the one hand, and in the existence of Australia on the other, is that, even if you don't want to believe in either of them, you are forced to believe in the existence of Australia when someone drags you there and shows it to you, whereas you can never be forced to "see" God.

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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.