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Author | Topic: How do we know when the Gospels were written? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 5860 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
The issue is not what most of us believe since this is a faith/belief issue anyway. The issue of who wrote the gospels and when they were written is most certainly NOT a faith/belief issue. It is an archeological and historical research question.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
SNC writes: True. But at the risk of sounding biased, the zeitgeist behind the authorship and motive of the Gospels is also a faith issue. We cant assume that human wisdom is the final arbitrator while ignoring the Creator of human wisdom...now can we?
The issue of who wrote the gospels and when they were written is most certainly NOT a faith/belief issue. It is an archeological and historical research question.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1530 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
DeclinetoState writes: Ummm I believe the word is redaction.
Is it the apparent errors,contradictions, and other inconsistencies'DelcinedtoState writes: Sounds like you already know the answer to your query. or is it the language the Gospel writers used, frequently alluding to events that happened much later. "One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3484 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I think many miss that Paul's use of the scriptures were mostly homiletic. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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Rainman2 Inactive Member |
Well in John 2:19 it's true that he is talking about his body being crucified and raised in three days. But Matthew 24 isn't talking about the same time. In John he was talking to the pharisees that were trying to trap him, in Matt.24 and Mark 13 he is talking to his disciples who are asking him about future events.
It's true that a prophecy can be "fufilled" partially in an earlier time, kind of like a picture of the future. Like Randman said about the oxen that shouldn't be muzzled. Their are many examples like that. e.g Moses said that God would raise up a prophet like him(Deut.18:18). Moses was like an imperfect picture of Jesus, he lead the people out of the bondage of Egypt, but Jesus leads people out of the bondage of sin. Also the whole sacrificial system was just a imperfect picture of Christ, which is why John the Baptist said "behold the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sins of the world." I believe their are also examples in history, although I can't confirm it with the bible. my own thoughts (not necasarilly true): I think that guy during the French revolution,Robspierre or whatever his name was had some simularities with the anti-christ. He tryed to make himself a God, he was seen by many as a good person, he rose to power with a small group of people, he beheaded his enemies, also Hitler, and Antiochus who sacrificied a pig in the Jewish temple. Not that they fufilled every prophecy,but it lets people see a preveiw of what it will be like. Although to a lower degree. This message has been edited by Rainman2, 04-03-2006 10:46 PM
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DeclinetoState Member (Idle past 6464 days) Posts: 158 Joined: |
I think that guy during the French revolution,Robspierre or whatever his name was had some simularities with the anti-christ. He tryed to make himself a God, he was seen by many as a good person, he rose to power with a small group of people, he beheaded his enemies, also Hitler, and Antiochus who sacrificied a pig in the Jewish temple. Some have suggested that history has seen two antichrists, with a third yet to come. The first two were Napoleon and Hitler, with the third perhaps already alive today in the Middle East. The problem with all of this speculation is that it's based on interpretations of Nostradamus' cryptic predictions, written hundreds of years ago, often in rhymes or riddles. Similarly, the Old Testament "prophecies" quoted in the New Testament and elsewhere were often in fact poetic oracles or even songs (psalms), which could often be fulfilled in one or more different ways, the possibilities even being contradictory (so that no matter what happended, the "prophecy" was "fulfilled"). If the Gospels were written long (more than a year or two) after the time of Christ, then any claim that Jesus fulfilled an Old Testament prophecy has at least two strikes against it: the original prophecy itself is subject to interpretation; and the event that supposedly fulfilled the prophecy may not have in fact happened at all. This message has been edited by DeclinetoState, 04-06-2006 03:26 PM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
If the Gospels were written long (more than a year or two) after the time of Christ, then any claim that Jesus fulfilled an Old Testament prophecy has at least two strikes against it: the original prophecy itself is subject to interpretation; and the event that supposedly fulfilled the prophecy may not have in fact happened at all. What does when they were written down have to do with anything? You think the hundreds of thousands who had witnessed him had just disappeared by the time they were written? That the thousands who believed just stopped talking about him, thinking about him, praying to him, pondering the scriptures and his place in them?
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Rainman2 Inactive Member |
I don't know what the idea of three anti-christ is based on. But the bible says that the spirit of anti-christ is in the world and there will be many false Christs. I'm not saying that those people were actually fufilling the prophecey of the anti-christ but when he comes he would have some similarities.
This message has been edited by Rainman2, 04-07-2006 04:07 PM
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DeclinetoState Member (Idle past 6464 days) Posts: 158 Joined: |
You're right about one thing: antichrists, not (necessarily) Antichrist. I don't know where Nostradamus (assuming he's being correctly interpreted) got the idea of three. Maybe it's a counter to the three of the Christian Trinity.
Here's a page with a comparison of Hitler and Napoleon, possibly two antichrists: http://campus.fortunecity.com/...92/contents/antichrist.html# Here is a place in the Bible where antichrists is used in the plural:
quote: There are other places where antichrist is used in the singular, however. Never overestimate the intelligence of someone who thinks you're wrong.
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Rainman2 Inactive Member |
The way I see it is the spirit of anticrist mentioned by John,
quote:has an influence over people and when someone follows it they become an antichrist. And there are many example of antichrists, like that guy from the Ralien Revolution which if that's the way you spell it you just take of the r's and it's "Alien Evolution" which is what they teach with their not so sneaky word games, (getting off focus/don't want to be one of those conspiracy people)..... anyway The Antichrist singular I believe will be much more directly influenced by this spiritAnd his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. Dan:24 When it says not by his own power I think it mean by the devils power (the spirit of antichrist), which would make sense since he is the Antichrist. ..sorry I couldn't get to the link most web-hosting is blocked here (TBC) This message has been edited by Rainman2, 04-07-2006 04:28 PM This message has been edited by Rainman2, 04-07-2006 04:30 PM
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The Critic  Suspended Member (Idle past 3164 days) Posts: 12 From: conn Joined: |
This comes from a soul emitted from heaven between satan and the making of earth. The earth is 10,080,000 years in the making it takes about 555 years to put on men, trees, ect, right then. Or, 800 years before christ.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein. AdminPD Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning who'd believe humans anyway!? |
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ramoss Member (Idle past 638 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
A good source that links to both sides of the 'early/late' arguements, and the reasoning for them is http://wwww.earlychristianwritings.com.
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pstivthnkn Inactive Member |
As a believer in God and Jesus (a prophet of God) I feel that the question that is always avoided, is, What is the true reason MAN created Christianity, and created Jesus into a God instead of a prophet? Why is it that Jesus never claimed to be God, in fact clearly stated that he was not, and never claimed to be a human incarnation of God. History and science can prove the existence of Jesus. There are many resources online & offline to support the reality of Jesus and all of the proclaimed prophets before Him. But nothing, especially nothing scientific, can support the existence of Jesus as a God, or the "miracles" that he completed. I believe that these acts of Jesus were manipulated by people throughout the times who once created a story and then had to continue to build upon the fibs so as not to be exposed as untruthful. Nothing in this text is intended to defame God or Jesus the prophet, or any other prophets, but open my widely supported view to this forum. Thank you
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein. AdminPD Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning
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AdminPD Inactive Administrator |
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chapalot Inactive Member |
The Four Gospels were not known to the early Christian Fathers. Justin Martyr, the most eminent of the early Fathers, wrote about the middle of the second century. His writings in proof of the divinity of Christ demanded the use of these Gospels had they existed in his time. He makes more than three hundred quotations from the books of the Old Testament, and nearly one hundred from the Apocryphal books of the New Testament; but none from the Four Gospels. The Rev. Dr. Giles says: "The very names of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, are never mentioned by him [Justin] -- do not occur once in all his writings" (Christian Records, p. 71)
There are many extant writings accredited to the Apostolic Fathers, Clement of Rome, Barnabas, Hermas, Ignatius, and Polycarp. These writings contain no mention of the Four Gospels. This also is admitted by Christian scholars. Dr. Dodwell says: "We have at this day certain most authentic ecclesiastical writers of the times, as Clemens Romanus, Barnabas, Hermas, Ignatius, and Polycarp, who wrote in the order wherein I have named them, and after all the writers of the New Testament. But in Hermas you will not find one passage or any mention of the New Testament, nor in all the rest is any one of the Evangelists named" (Dissertations upon Irenaeus).Tlosophy. It has been written that never has a book been read so often but examined so infrequently. Many like to say that the four Gospels were written around`70 Ad. Gospel of the Nazoreans was quoted by Ignatious in 98 A.D. and so was written prior to this date and was associated with the early Nazoreans. The Stichometry of Nicephorus assigns it 2,200 lines, 300 less than Matthew. (this may not have been the original Gospel of the Nazoreans however). Various old references to the Nazorean/Hebrew Gospel sometimes lead researches to think that there were four different Gospels but it is more likely that one document was the source of a score of others "Is it possible seriously to maintain that there were two separate documents, each of them written at Jerusalem during the Apostolic age and in the Hebrew tongue, each of them assigned to the Apostle Matthew, and each of them dealing in some way with the Gospel story? Or are we not rather forced to the conclusion that these two documents, whose descriptions are so strangely similar, must really be identical,..". (A. S. Barnes; the Gospel according to the Hebrews; Journal of Theological Studies 6 (1905) p. 361 LITERARY DNA TEST ALSO SUPPORTS THE ONE DOCUMENT Theory. Open-minded biblical scholars in today’s world continue to seek for the ancient “Q Document” of Christianity’s New Testament. The Q Document is known by biblical scholars to be the source of the Bible’s New Testament. True biblical scholars, who have devoted their lives to studying the Bible with an open mind, concluded long ago, that the descriptions of Jesus’ life and teachings by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were so similar, that there had to be one source document that was used to “write” their “Gospels”. Biblical scholars have for years called this missing link to the New Testament, the “Q Document”. The “Q Document” was used by the Roman Emperor Constantine to devise his Roman Universal Church. The Q Document was decreed by Constantine to be the document from which 4th century Roman writers would write the Gospels of the New Testament, accredited to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Only those sayings and teachings of Jesus, specifically approved by Emperor Constantine, were included in the “Q Document” and the New Testament of today’s Bible. The Q Document did contain some truths of Jesus’ life, but it was specifically written with many untruths, omissions and deliberate mistranslations. Even worse, the words of Saul/Paul were used extensively in Constantine’s New Testament. Saul/Paul never met Jesus in person. Saul/Paul’s only experience with Jesus was when Saul/Paul had a vision over his persecution of those individuals who were following Jesus’ liberal philosophy and performing Jesus’ spiritual techniques. “Early church father Eusebius, who, in a rare moment of seeming honesty, "admitted...that the canonical Christian gospels and epistles were the ancient writings of the Essenes reproduced in the name of Jesus.Well known biblical scholar Taylor also opines that "the travelling Egyptian Therapeuts brought the whole story from India to their monasteries in Egypt, where, some time after the commencement of the Roman monarchy, it was transmuted in Christianity." In addition, Wheless evinces that one can find much of the fable of "Jesus Christ" in the Book of Enoch, which predated the supposed advent of the Jewish master by hundreds of years. According to Massey, it was the "pagan" Gnostics--who included members of the, Essene/Therapeut and Nazarene brotherhoods among others--who actually carried to Rome the esoteric (gnostic) texts containing the Mythos, upon which the numerous gospels, including the canonical four, were based. Wheless says, "Obviously, the Gospels and other New Testament booklets, written in Greek and quoting 300 times the Greek Septuagint, and several Greek Pagan authors, as Aratus, and Cleanthes, were written, not by illiterate Jewish peasants, but by Greek-speaking ex-Pagan Fathers and priests far from the Holy Land of the Jews." Mead averred, "We thus conclude that the autographs of our four Gospels were most probably written in Egypt, in the reign of Hadrian." .Rene Descartes once said that if you begin with doubt you will end with certainties.and if you begin with certainties you will end in doubt. I read this years ago and thought the whole concept preposterous and foolish. Now, I believe it to be more than just a theory since the most recent gospels were discovered in Egypt and many feel that the Gospel of the Essenes were the original “Q” Testament in which the four gospels were derived. The Roman Church created a history of the triumph over Essenic Apostle Christianity in much the same partisan way that, two millennia later, Hollywood createdTales of “cowboys and Indians” to relate “how the West was won” not “how The West was lost.” History is not simply related, it is created . All too often . it Is simply [used] to glorify and justify the status quo. Such histories conceal As much as they reveal. And so it was that the Roman Emperor Constantine devised a male-dominated religion, which he called the Roman Universal Church, using fear to control people and giving people only the weakest portions of Jesus’ spiritual teachings. In this manner, the God-loving philosophy of Jesus, together with his spiritual wisdom and energetic techniques for Enlightenment, were deliberately weakened, or completely omitted from the New Testament, so Rome could continue its economic control of the world using the God-fearing philosophy of the Roman Empire’s Universal Church.And so it was that many devious methods were used by the Roman Empire’s Universal Church to greatly modify and lessen the wonder-filled life history of the man who became a Christ. In this way, most of Jesus’ life, (called the missing years), were omitted from the Roman Empire Church’s New Testament. Christianity has been so spiritually weakened in today’s world that only one or two people, (out of 2 billion “Christians”), in a generation are able to attain Enlightenment in their lifetime. Yet, as seen in ancient paintings, using Jesus’ true teachings and techniques, most of his disciples and students, reached Enlightenment in that one lifetime. A contemporary said: We have proved again and again, the writings are not the production of Christ or of His apostles, but a compilation of rumors and beliefs, made, long after their departure, by some obscure semi-Jews, not in harmony even with one another, and published by them under the name of the apostles, or of those considered the followers of the apostles, so as to give the appearance of apostolic authority to all these blunders and falsehoods." (Faustus, Contra Faustu
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