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Author Topic:   Why God uses faith
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4675 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 136 of 145 (301302)
04-05-2006 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Legend
03-11-2006 6:49 PM


Another country heard from
Legend,
I replied to you, but my question is really a reply to Catholic Scientist from a slightly off topic comment of his in another thread.
LinearAq writes:
...yet He does not provide enough evidence of His existance to overcome those limitations for people who require more than unsupported assertions.
to which Catholic Scientist writes:
I think that God wants us to believe in him because of faith, not because of proof. If he were proved, then we'd be like robots. We are god's children and I think he prefers real children over robot children. I think god wants children who are not forced to believe in him by proof, but choose to believe in him through faith. I may be wrong, but that’s the impression that I get.
I am my parents' child and they have proved they exist in my reality. I a rather forced to believe in them by the proof they provided. I don't think that has made me a robot slave to them.
Why would God proving to us that He exists cause us to be His robots?
I have heard the God providing empirical proof of His existance would remove our free will. Is this what you mean?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Legend, posted 03-11-2006 6:49 PM Legend has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-06-2006 11:07 AM LinearAq has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 145 (301502)
04-06-2006 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by LinearAq
04-05-2006 5:58 PM


Re: Another country heard from
Why would God proving to us that He exists cause us to be His robots?
Let’s say that god can do anything. He can create whatever he wants. He could have created us as perfect beings that never sinned and always loved him. These actions would have been programmed into us like you program a robot. It would be no fun.
Take a pet dog for example. If you had a robot pet dog and wanted to play fetch, you could program to bring a ball back to you. That would be lame, not nearly as satisfying as having a real dog that sometimes won’t bring it back.
I think its kinda the same for god. He didn’t want to make us as robots (without free will) that were just programmed to believe in him. There is something about faith that really tickles god’s balls, I guess. I don’t really have an answer for why god uses faith instead of proof, but that’s the way he does it.
I have heard the God providing empirical proof of His existance would remove our free will. Is this what you mean?
I don’t think it would remove all of our free will, just the ability to not believe in him.

Science fails to recognize the single most potent element of human existence.
Letting the reigns go to the unfolding is faith, faith, faith, faith.
Science has failed our world.
Science has failed our Mother Earth.
-System of a Down

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by LinearAq, posted 04-05-2006 5:58 PM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by LinearAq, posted 04-07-2006 12:01 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 140 by lfen, posted 04-07-2006 1:39 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4675 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 138 of 145 (301981)
04-07-2006 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by New Cat's Eye
04-06-2006 11:07 AM


Robots don't free will or maybe they do?
It looks like you contradicted yourself there. Or maybe you didn't answer the question. From what you wrote, God proving His existance would not make us robots.
I don’t think it would remove all of our free will, just the ability to not believe in him.
Ok. So what? Empirical evidence that George W. Bush is the President doesn't make me respect him any more than if He was a fictional character who did all those stupid things. The evidence just makes me believe GWB exists.
I would think that the fence-sitters would be forced to choose which master to serve (as opposed to making no choice due to lack of evidence and being punished forever anyway) if God just provided strong empirical evidence of His existence.
I find it amazing that the God who wants our love so badly, doesn't even bother to call us up once in a while.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-06-2006 11:07 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-07-2006 1:34 PM LinearAq has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 145 (302033)
04-07-2006 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by LinearAq
04-07-2006 12:01 PM


Re: Robots don't free will or maybe they do?
It looks like you contradicted yourself there.
Yeah, I see how it looks like that. I think I was too ambiguious with what I mean by a robot and what programs would be provided by god proving his existance.
If god proved his existance to us then we would not be able to disbelieve his existance. We would be 'belief' robots but we would not have every action programmed into us to remove all of our free will and making us 'total' robots. We just wouldn't have free will in whether or not we believe he exists.
I find it amazing that the God who wants our love so badly, doesn't even bother to call us up once in a while.
But, IMO, he doesn't want to force us to love him. He wants us to love him on our own accord. He wants us to love him without definite proof that he exists. He wants us to have to have faith that he exists and then use our free will to love him or not.
If he proved to us that he existed we would no longer have to have faith and we wouldn't be able to deny his existance. You could still choose whether or not to love him though, even if he proved his existance he wouldn't be removing all of our free will.
Does that make more sense?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by LinearAq, posted 04-07-2006 12:01 PM LinearAq has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 140 of 145 (302036)
04-07-2006 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by New Cat's Eye
04-06-2006 11:07 AM


Re: Another country heard from
I think its kinda the same for god. He didn’t want to make us as robots (without free will) that were just programmed to believe in him. There is something about faith that really tickles god’s balls, I guess. I don’t really have an answer for why god uses faith instead of proof, but that’s the way he does it.
This is the priests/prophets switch trick. The faith that is being asked for is not God using faith, it's the priest using the faith of the members of their religion in themselves but with the exceptions of the few who claim to be God they mostly like the Wizard of Oz tell you don't look behind the curtain, look up at the altar and have faith that I (a human being just like yourself) have am telling you something I can't prove but you must have faith BECAUSE (and this is the switch) God wants you to have faith. No where in this did God enter at all, it's the religious trick and a very understandable power move.
You, Phat, Faith all the believers who offer up entirely human thinking only claiming that the part that speaks about God is supposed to be non human wisdom, divine spirit wisdom, or something. Like Dorothy we are supposed to keep our eyes on the talking head on the altar and notice that all talking is always being done by another human being. God, the Great Wizard of Oz is just the claims of some human being or another, Paul, Joseph Smith, Mohammed, and so on and so forth. And of course they require we believe what they tell us on faith because they have no evidence, and what evidence there is tends strongly to contradict their stories.
Humans creating the social power structures of religions use faith. If there is a god it's seems to me that it uses the laws of physics. Science in attempting to actually understand the universe is more "religious" that is to say a more genuine relationship to the divine than religion as it looks to what actually is rather than the explanations dreamed up by the priests and prophets.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-06-2006 11:07 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-07-2006 2:18 PM lfen has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 145 (302044)
04-07-2006 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by lfen
04-07-2006 1:39 PM


Re: Another country heard from
The faith that is being asked for is not God using faith, it's the priest using the faith of the members of their religion in themselves but with the exceptions of the few who claim to be God they mostly like the Wizard of Oz tell you don't look behind the curtain, look up at the altar and have faith that I (a human being just like yourself) have am telling you something I can't prove but you must have faith BECAUSE (and this is the switch) God wants you to have faith.
Whew, that's one helluva sentence. I'm having trouble understanding all of it with its poor grammer and missing punctuation but I will try to address it.
I think god wants you to have faith becuase he doesn't provide any proof for his existance, either that or he doesn't exist. But if he does exist, he must want us to use faith or he would show himself.
I don't really care about the tricks that priests or prophets use.
You, Phat, Faith all the believers who offer up entirely human thinking only claiming that the part that speaks about God is supposed to be non human wisdom, divine spirit wisdom, or something.
Yep, I'd have to say there is some non-human component involved.
Like Dorothy we are supposed to keep our eyes on the talking head on the altar and notice that all talking is always being done by another human being.
Nah, I'd say look inside yourself (not literally of course).
God, the Great Wizard of Oz is just the claims of some human being or another, Paul, Joseph Smith, Mohammed, and so on and so forth.
Well, I feel like I have some of my own subjective evidence other than the claims of other people. This, of course, is no benefit to you, but I do think that god is more than just a claim of somebody's, for me at least.
If there is a god it's seems to me that it uses the laws of physics.
What about miracles?
Science in attempting to actually understand the universe is more "religious" that is to say a more genuine relationship to the divine than religion as it looks to what actually is rather than the explanations dreamed up by the priests and prophets.
Except science is limited in its ability to detect things that are not 'of this world', if they exist at all.
I came up with my own explanations, as opposed to relying on others to feed me explanations, and I found that they closely resemble some of explanations by others so I don't think they are total bullshit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by lfen, posted 04-07-2006 1:39 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by lfen, posted 04-07-2006 3:29 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 142 of 145 (302069)
04-07-2006 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by New Cat's Eye
04-07-2006 2:18 PM


Re: Another country heard from
The faith that is being asked for is not God using faith, it's the priest using the faith of the members of their religion in themselves but with the exceptions of the few who claim to be God they mostly like the Wizard of Oz tell you don't look behind the curtain, look up at the altar and have faith that I (a human being just like yourself) have am telling you something I can't prove but you must have faith BECAUSE (and this is the switch) God wants you to have faith. No where in this did God enter at all, it's the religious trick and a very understandable power move.
I'll rephrase it.
God is not asking humans to have faith in him. The priests are asking their followers to have faith in what the priests are telling them. (There are on record some individuals such as Franklin Jones who claim to be God but they are an exception.)
But the priests by holding forth a concept of God distract the believers into focusing on the claim that God wants their faith when all that is happening is a human being is telling other human beings something and asking to be believed on authority and dubious or scant evidence.
God has not spoken or written anything at all. It's always humans but they claim to be channeling God. Therefore there is no request by God to have faith in him. The request is by humans to have faith in what they are saying about God. The religious usurp God in that they claim they are speaking for him and their words should be believed the same as if God was speaking. That is the tricky switch I was talking about. It's never God telling us to have faith it's someone else, the Pope, Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Martin Luther, Faith, or you speaking for God and telling us we have to have faith "in God's words" when really you mean we should have faith that what you are telling us is right.
I hope this is clearer. I should close the EvC tab in Firefox as I've too much to do this morning and so am not taking the time to carefully proof and rewrite my posts. I apologize for any confusion that resulted.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-07-2006 2:18 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-07-2006 3:40 PM lfen has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 145 (302079)
04-07-2006 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by lfen
04-07-2006 3:29 PM


Re: Another country heard from
God is not asking humans to have faith in him.
Well, if he does exist, his lack of proof is the request for faith.
The request is by humans to have faith in what they are saying about God.
I agree that you shouldn't just throw your faith on something someone told you. Thats why I typed this:
quote:
I came up with my own explanations, as opposed to relying on others to feed me explanations, and I found that they closely resemble some of explanations by others so I don't think they are total bullshit.
ABE:
I hope this is clearer. I should close the EvC tab in Firefox as I've too much to do this morning and so am not taking the time to carefully proof and rewrite my posts. I apologize for any confusion that resulted.
No problem.
This message has been edited by Catholic Scientist, 04-07-2006 02:41 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by lfen, posted 04-07-2006 3:29 PM lfen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by LinearAq, posted 04-07-2006 4:13 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4675 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 144 of 145 (302105)
04-07-2006 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by New Cat's Eye
04-07-2006 3:40 PM


Re: Another country heard from
Well, if he does exist, his lack of proof is the request for faith.
I don't see how that follows. Let's see how many other reasons for His lack of communication I can find.
1. He is disinterested in his creation.
2. He likes to cause conflict between groups of people.
3. We are incidental in the grand scheme of things.
4. The creation was meant for spiders to achieve their highest potential.
5. He is not omnipotent and somehow cannot communicate with us.
6. He is in a coma from all the effort of building creation.
7. We need peyote to understand Him.
I could probably think of a few others.
Regardless, it seems that the God of individual intervention would intervene when people seek Him. Jesus healed people via miracles and stated that His followers would do greater things. Do we see any of that today? There have been no actions by faith healers today that have not been shown to be fakery, ineffective or placebo. What is this faith that God desires doing for us? All it seems to do is keep us supporting particular institutions without question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-07-2006 3:40 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-07-2006 5:02 PM LinearAq has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 145 of 145 (302133)
04-07-2006 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by LinearAq
04-07-2006 4:13 PM


Re: Another country heard from
I could probably think of a few others.
Ok, point taken.
But, none of those fit with the god I believe in, not that my god must be the right one, but the one I believe seems to want to use faith. And I realize that is not at all convincing.
What is this faith that God desires doing for us? All it seems to do is keep us supporting particular institutions without question.
Well, speak for yourself. I question a lot, I'm convinced he exists.
We still haven't come up with an answer for why god uses faith and I'm starting to think that I am unable to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by LinearAq, posted 04-07-2006 4:13 PM LinearAq has not replied

  
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