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Author Topic:   The Case Against the Existence of God
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 301 (302165)
04-07-2006 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Dan Carroll
04-07-2006 5:35 PM


Re: Satheism, Watheism
A being is a kind of thing.
No, there's a difference. It's the difference between mind and matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-07-2006 5:35 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3456 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 226 of 301 (302167)
04-07-2006 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 4:36 PM


Choices
quote:
1. It was created by an eternal Being
2. It has always existed in some form.
There are your choices. There are no others.
Option #3: It was created by a noneternal being.
The truth is we really don't know and can only speculate. So depends on whether you want to stick with what is scientifically possible or allow all possibilities.
When you get time I would like your thoughts on Message 105.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 4:36 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 5:53 PM purpledawn has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 227 of 301 (302169)
04-07-2006 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by purpledawn
04-07-2006 5:51 PM


Re: Choices
Option #3: It was created by a noneternal being.
If that was the case, then that non-eternal being had to arise from something--namely nature. Revert to #2.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by purpledawn, posted 04-07-2006 5:51 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by purpledawn, posted 04-07-2006 6:19 PM robinrohan has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 228 of 301 (302172)
04-07-2006 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 5:48 PM


Re: Satheism, Watheism
Yeah, so what's the problem with all that?
If you make your definition that specific, you stop being able to slot everything outside the universe into it. It stops being general enough to do so.
No, there's a difference. It's the difference between mind and matter.
Yeah, read the definition, guy. In fact, read the first two words next to "1."

"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 5:48 PM robinrohan has not replied

JustinC
Member (Idle past 4843 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 229 of 301 (302173)
04-07-2006 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 5:32 PM


Re: Satheism, Watheism
quote:
No.
God is a Being.
The universe is a thing.
Big difference.
What the hell are you talking about?
A being is a thing, even if you are referring to a mind.
And if the mind isn't a thing, then how do you define thing? Or mind for that matter?
And if by thing you are referring to matter, in what sense would a mega universe be composed of matter?
Even still, I don't think that gets to the heart of the question. Why couldn't the universe be a product of the mind? And if it is, why couldn't the mind be considered the universe "in some form," that form being the mind.
It seems you are just arbitrarily defining words and concepts. I mean, what does "in some form" even mean?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 5:32 PM robinrohan has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 230 of 301 (302174)
04-07-2006 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Dan Carroll
04-07-2006 9:37 AM


He doesn't say, one way or the other. So they definitely could be!
Isn't that the same as if I said you can't prove God doesn't exist. I forgot what you call that, falsefiable something or another?
Yeah, show me the case against Zeus' existence, too.
I really don't know much about Zeus. Maybe he was a god.
I do remember something about the possibility that the Greeks dug up dinosaur bones, and made all these god stories from them.
It could even be considered biblical:
Numbers 13:32 And they gave the children of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, “The land through which we have gone as spies is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great stature. 33 There we saw the giants (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.”
Maybe one of those giants was Zeus.
I guess my point is, most of that is from times gone by, and there is little to choose from now.
Do you know what I like about you? You would make a great Christian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-07-2006 9:37 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-07-2006 6:00 PM riVeRraT has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 231 of 301 (302177)
04-07-2006 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by purpledawn
04-07-2006 8:43 AM


Re: God of the Past - God of the Present
If your God truly created the universe as you claim then that would only mean that your God existed in the past. Great, but what has this God of the OP done today?
That's a different question entirely. But the God I am talking could not die. Or at least I don't think he could.
These are the only 2 choices.
According to who?
It's not a matter of who, Purple Dawn--it's matter of logic. There are only 2 choices logically.
There is such a thing as logic.
It's like 2 and 2 make 4.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 04-07-2006 04:59 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by purpledawn, posted 04-07-2006 8:43 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by purpledawn, posted 04-07-2006 6:27 PM robinrohan has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 232 of 301 (302180)
04-07-2006 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by riVeRraT
04-07-2006 5:57 PM


Isn't that the same as if I said you can't prove God doesn't exist. I forgot what you call that, falsefiable something or another?
That's pretty much the point. It's silly to start proclaiming Green Lantern as the creator of the universe. But under the criteria people are laying out to show that the idea of God deserves some attention, Green Lantern qualifies too.
Do you know what I like about you? You would make a great Christian.
Thanks. But I really wouldn't.

"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by riVeRraT, posted 04-07-2006 5:57 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by riVeRraT, posted 04-07-2006 11:41 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 233 of 301 (302185)
04-07-2006 6:13 PM


Muddying the waters
Messages 228 and 229 are attempts to muddy the waters.
They say that a being is really a thing and so forth. This would mean that there is no difference between nature and God, and if there is no difference, then of course there is no argument.
But the idea about the God/nature argument is that there is a difference.
And I think that atheists, such as myself, would agree that there is a difference between whether the universe was created by a being or always existed as a thing.

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by JustinC, posted 04-07-2006 7:23 PM robinrohan has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3456 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 234 of 301 (302188)
04-07-2006 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 5:53 PM


Re: Choices
quote:
If that was the case, then that non-eternal being had to arise from something--namely nature. Revert to #2.
According to who?
You don't know what was there before our universe.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 5:53 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 6:21 PM purpledawn has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 235 of 301 (302190)
04-07-2006 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by purpledawn
04-07-2006 6:19 PM


Re: Choices
According to who?
You don't know what was there before our universe.
Logic, Purple Dawn, logic.
One deduces it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by purpledawn, posted 04-07-2006 6:19 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by purpledawn, posted 04-07-2006 6:35 PM robinrohan has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3456 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 236 of 301 (302196)
04-07-2006 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 5:59 PM


Re: God of the Past - God of the Present
quote:
But the God I am talking could not die. Or at least I don't think he could.
Ah more new information, but you aren't even sure.
quote:
It's not a matter of who, Purple Dawn--it's matter of logic. There are only 2 choices logically.
IOW, according to you and we are to trust your logic. What makes the choice of an eternal being logical?
You really haven't shown us the logic behind your conclusions.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 5:59 PM robinrohan has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3456 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 237 of 301 (302199)
04-07-2006 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by robinrohan
04-07-2006 6:21 PM


Show Me The Logic
quote:
One deduces it.
What is the basis for your logic? What is the foundation of information that leads you to your conclusions? What did you deduce all this from?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 6:21 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by robinrohan, posted 04-07-2006 6:40 PM purpledawn has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 238 of 301 (302202)
04-07-2006 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by purpledawn
04-07-2006 6:35 PM


Re: Show Me The Logic
What is the basis for your logic? What is the foundation of information that leads you to your conclusions? What did you deduce all this from?
One doesn't need a foundation of information, Purple Dawn. Just a mind. See message #191.
ABE: the second 191.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 04-07-2006 05:42 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by purpledawn, posted 04-07-2006 6:35 PM purpledawn has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 239 of 301 (302215)
04-07-2006 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by ThingsChange
04-07-2006 4:57 PM


Re: Hearsay
Assuming we agree that the witnesses did not write the New Testament books (written much later), the true authors were relaying what they heard from others. Isn't that hearsay?
But I don't agree about that. Matthew, Mark, John and Peter among others were eyewitnesses.
One more branch up the tree: Why do you believe inerrancy of these writers instead of some fuzzy interpretive truth like Phat does?
Because I'm more tough-minded than Phat?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by ThingsChange, posted 04-07-2006 4:57 PM ThingsChange has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by lfen, posted 04-07-2006 11:17 PM Faith has replied

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