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Author Topic:   In the begining...... nothing.... unless infinite past.
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 76 of 79 (302322)
04-08-2006 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by sidelined
04-08-2006 1:24 AM


Re: Supersets and subsets
If they were done supernaturally then would they not, by definition, be supernatural?
No, I don't think so. For example:
Jesus performs a miracle and turns water into wine. Now the water is completely natural. The wine is completely natural. All test show that they are just exactly what they seem to be, water and wine. They are just natural objects. But the miracle itself is supernatutral. It is not subject to test or examination.
What was water is now wine, and the best science can do is say that the cause is unknown.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by sidelined, posted 04-08-2006 1:24 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by sidelined, posted 04-08-2006 2:20 PM jar has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 77 of 79 (302420)
04-08-2006 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by jar
04-08-2006 9:55 AM


Re: Supersets and subsets
jar
Jesus performs a miracle and turns water into wine. Now the water is completely natural. The wine is completely natural.
The wine cannot be considered natural since the components were not present in the water beforehand. How do we account for the violation of physical processes since we now have to account for the increase in mass of the water by the addition of almost 1000 new components such as ethyl alcohol,glycerol,tartric acid, etc..
Physical components have been added in violation of physical laws. The mass has increased by an amount related to the addition of these new components, and this mass increase without the input of energy {since energy is a natural phenomena of the world} would upset the mass energy balance that E=MC^2 implies.
l. All test show that they are just exactly what they seem to be, water and wine. They are just natural objects. But the miracle itself is supernatutral. It is not subject to test or examination.
What tests? Taste is not a test since the taste can easily fooled by substiuting wine for the water through misdirection. After all, Christ likely had everyone's trust and could easily have done a switch while alone.
You also contradict yourself here by first saying that there is a test {All test show} and then reverse with the statement {It is not subject to test or examination.}. I also contend that since no test was done of any real critical level that the report of supernatural by pre- scientific culture is far too much a stretch. However as you say faith in the occurence is indeed untestable.
I believe we have strayed far from the topic and perhaps we can engage ourselves in this discussion further through the chatroom. Good day sir.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 04-08-2006 9:55 AM jar has not replied

complexPHILOSOPHY
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 79 (307191)
04-27-2006 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Christian7
03-19-2005 6:45 PM


Reply to In the begining...... nothing.... unless infinite past.
quote:
According to the Big Bang Theory, the beginning of the universe began with a colossal explosion which apparently came out of no where. In other words, in the beginning of time, there was no existing thing, but then out of this nothingness came existence packaged with physical laws and the material which was in the universe evolved into highly advance systems to produce everything around us including us.
Which Big Bang Theory are you referring to, because the Big Bang Theory that I am familiar with doesn't mention a universe which 'began with a colossal explosion which apparently came out of nowhere'?
This message has been edited by complexPHILOSOPHY, 04-28-2006 11:47 AM

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 Message 1 by Christian7, posted 03-19-2005 6:45 PM Christian7 has not replied

Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 79 of 79 (313659)
05-19-2006 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Christian7
03-19-2005 6:45 PM


Hello, Guido from the past. Wow, its nice to meet myself. Your post is retarded. Thank goodness I've developed past such posts.
Can I have this topic closed pleased? I am not really making much of a case here. I think maybe sometime in the future I should propose a better topic with a much stronger premise to debate.
Edited by Guido Arbia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Christian7, posted 03-19-2005 6:45 PM Christian7 has not replied

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