Nature and the fall of man

Even an omniscient omnipotent God can't violate the logic of His own being and His own universe. That was Robin's point. I've been waiting for him to make the point again with his usual precision, but now I'm making it more klutzily instead. You claim God would have to make a man who both has free will and doesn't have free will, in other words to do something impossible, and if He didn't that means He's not omniscient or omnipotent according to you.

Thinking about this some more, I think I disagree after all. I don't think it was a matter of fine-tuning and careful balancing. Seems to me that would have been more like stacking the deck. I think God made man in His own image, with His own moral characteristics, a man who would naturally be oriented toward the God who made him, and yet with a completely free will that could act independently of God.P.S. You were gone a while. Nice to have you back.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 08:00 PM

We aren't. The Fall, remember? Adam originally was, then he disobeyed -- that was the Fall -- and ever since the human race tends to sin.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 11:43 PM

Kind of looks to me like he made some reasonable inferences about what your God is really like, and that you are just refusing to recognize those inferences.

It isn't about belief. It's about the nature of your God. He's obviously weak or incompetent -- isn't in charge of the meteor that wreaked so much damage, or apparently in charge of the suffering of his creatures either. Pretty weak and stupid. And uncompassionate about all those suffering creatures apparently too. Gives us some remedies, rather too little and late it seems to me. And they don't cure everything, and people and animals still die in awful misery. Some live in awful misery too.

No, the God who actually exists determines good and bad. They are absolutes because they derive from His very nature.YOUR God on the other hand obviously has no notion of good and bad as well as being too incompetent to control a meteor he supposedly brought into existence. He lets his creatures suffer until he manages to provide a few weak remedies in modern times to help just a tad to alleviate the suffering.He/she is an idiot and apparently thinks we're all idiots to consider him/her worthy of worship. We do as lousy a job of it as your weak and incompetent and morally challenged god.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-11-2006 04:15 PM

For a Bible believing Christian, morality is objective because it is given by the Creator God, and we are not going by feelings. It is spelled out in the Bible. There is a Biblical basis for the pro-life position; there is not for the pro-choice position. The Biblical basis for the pro-life position is the references to God's forming us in the womb and knowing us from the womb.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-12-2006 09:39 AM